Reflections after the election: Lacunae in the education of engineers

On Nov 7, 4:26*pm, "* * Chas" (remove
spamski to e-mail me) wrote:
"Still Just Me" wrote in messagenews:34r6h4lc8bd07fbt60f195cgvt75np2nc3@4ax .com...

On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:07:18 -0800 (PST), Chalo
wrote:

Hoover so opposed the New Deal that he offered FDR the opportunity to
take office early if he'd only give up that part of his plan of
action. *Doesn't seem that liberal to me. *Fortunately, Roosevelt
turned down his offer.

10 points if you can name the guy who was FDR's New Deal Architect
without googling it.

Let's see now, it wasn't Milton Friedman or Arthur Laffer.....

Chas.

It wasn't J M Keynes either, though the British would like to pretend
differently. Roosevelt didn't even understand Keynes's letter about
deficit spending. For historical completeness, it should also be
pointed out that public works on a national scale as poverty relief
was invented not by Hoover or Keynes (he didn't care on what the money
was spent as long as it was put into circulation) or Roosevelt, but by
Mussolini, whose roadbuilding programme (and much else) was later aped
by Hitler.

Andre Jute
A dispassionate perspective is everything

Andre Jute top posted:
Ugh. You live in a social democracy already, Cole. All Americans do.
Hoover started it, Roosevelt fixed it in the American consciousness,
the GI Bill made equality of opportunity a reality for thousands of
poor boys by giving them an upperclass education, and Johnson's Great
Society was a comprehensive affirmation.

Oh please! The US is the country that figuratively tells the mentally
ill and disabled to go **** themselves (please go off and die someplace
where people will not see you do it). The politics of the last 30 years
have been of greed, meanness and viciousness.

Not that Mr. Jute would have a clue (based on his accounts of privileged
upbringing and travel in business/advertising circles).

As for the affordable educational opportunities, those went away in the
US about 15 years ago. The "American Dream" of advancement was injured
by Reagan and finished off by Bush/Clinton/Bush II and the Republican
Congresses.

Every time I correspond with you, I am reminded again of how you use
fashionable buzzwords without really knowing their meaning. This,
below, is a really gross example of your ignorance about your own
country.

Some of us have had to live through the war on the working classes
conducted the last 30 years in the US. Mr. Jute appears to NOT have been
among this group.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
"America is like a casino. Almost everyone loses, some make it big,
and the owners always win." - Anon.

Andre Jute writes:

There were decades, amounting to almost a century, when the
Republicans were the most liberal party in US politics. Meanwhile
the Democrate were City Hall ward heelers, Tammany Hall crooks
by any other name.

...or community organizers!

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

Andre Jute wrote:
On Nov 7, 4:03 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
But don't take my word for it. Here is the distinguished historian
Paul Johnson, in A History of the Modern World (a bestseller in the
States as The Devil's Decades): "Both men [President Hoover and
Roosevelt} agreed action was urgent; except on details, they agreed
what it should be -- more of the same."
Paul Johnson is a right-wing revisionist, writing (preaching to the
choir) from the margins.

Well then, Peter Cole, you should have no difficulty refuting Mr
Johnson's account, and all the original documents he based it on.
Until you do that, you look like a slack teenager who hasn't done his
homework, screeching that his "feeling" should be history rather than
the facts. So far you haven't even tried, you have merely hung around
sneering at those who know more than you do.


FDR bashing has been a staple of conservative dogma for decades.
Johnson's "thesis" was that FDR was merely a less competent version of
Hoover, both of them pursuing basically the same wrong-headed/lefty
strategies that prolonged, rather than ameliorated, the Great Depression
and lead the US down the slippery slope of creeping socialism yawn.

That "analysis" is far out of the mainstream. I don't need to refute it,
the majority of historical writers already have. Surveys of scholars
over the years have consistently ranked FDR as #1, 2, or 3, while Hoover
never makes it out of the bottom of the class. I suppose they're all
"slack teenagers" (whatever that means).

Your presumption that the members of this NG are ignorant of American
history, citing as proof the opinions of some marginal right-wing
polemicist, would be offensively condescending if not so ridiculously
naive.


I hope we get a modern FDR in Obama and a new New Deal. McCain came
across like Hoover-lite. The electorate obviously got that. But thanks
for your insight on America!*

I wasn't offering insights; Americans lacerating themselves is not
even mildly amusing. I was correcting street myths Chalo had picked up

I don't know which Americans you feel are "lacerating themselves", or
what even what the "laceration" is.


*and the gratuitous slap at engineers...

Slapping down ignorant engineers is never gratuitous.

Sounds like you have a major chip on your shoulder.

Who knows, one
in a hundred times an engineer actually learns something.

We have to learn lots of things, engineers get paid to make things work,
there's little place to hide ignorance. We have to continuously learn,
since technology typically changes so quickly.

Are you an
engineer, Cole?

Yes.

You have all the hallmarks of ignorance and smug
arrogance and disregard for the truth, though we're still waiting for
you to display any of the brains.

I think you forgot to capitalize "Truth" -- and, is that the royal "we"?

As for arrogance, I don't claim a deep understanding of the Great
Depression or the politics of that time, nor do I feel competent to make
any but the most superficial observations about the current crisis and
any parallels to past events. I am, however, not so naive as to not
appreciate that there is a range of historical analysis based on deep
scholarship, and that your comments (single source) represent a
far-right interpretation that few take seriously, especially in recent
decades.

Peter Cole wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Nov 7, 4:03 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
But don't take my word for it. Here is the distinguished historian
Paul Johnson, in A History of the Modern World (a bestseller in the
States as The Devil's Decades): "Both men [President Hoover and
Roosevelt} agreed action was urgent; except on details, they agreed
what it should be -- more of the same."
Paul Johnson is a right-wing revisionist, writing (preaching to the
choir) from the margins.

Well then, Peter Cole, you should have no difficulty refuting Mr
Johnson's account, and all the original documents he based it on.
Until you do that, you look like a slack teenager who hasn't done his
homework, screeching that his "feeling" should be history rather than
the facts. So far you haven't even tried, you have merely hung around
sneering at those who know more than you do.


FDR bashing has been a staple of conservative dogma for decades.
Johnson's "thesis" was that FDR was merely a less competent version of
Hoover, both of them pursuing basically the same wrong-headed/lefty
strategies that prolonged, rather than ameliorated, the Great Depression
and lead the US down the slippery slope of creeping socialism yawn.

The right has always hated FDR because he took away some of their
economic power and placed it in the hands of the elected representatives
of the people.

[...]
*and the gratuitous slap at engineers...

Slapping down ignorant engineers is never gratuitous.

Sounds like you have a major chip on your shoulder.

Why would anyone be jealous of a profession with so much work for so
little reward?

Who knows, one
in a hundred times an engineer actually learns something.

We have to learn lots of things, engineers get paid to make things work,
there's little place to hide ignorance. We have to continuously learn,
since technology typically changes so quickly.

And we are held personally (legally) responsible for our decisions. Pull
the type of BS commonly found in certain business practices, and the
engineer will be seeing a minimum security facility from the inside.

Are you an
engineer, Cole?

Yes.

You have all the hallmarks of ignorance and smug
arrogance and disregard for the truth, though we're still waiting for
you to display any of the brains.

I think you forgot to capitalize "Truth" -- and, is that the royal "we"?
[...]

The privileged right is always condescending to the worker bees.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
"life is like a **** sandwich. The more bread you have, the less ****
you gotta eat." - Anon.

Andre Jute wrote:
Ugh. You live in a social democracy already, Cole. All Americans do.
Hoover started it, Roosevelt fixed it in the American consciousness,
the GI Bill made equality of opportunity a reality for thousands of
poor boys by giving them an upperclass education, and Johnson's Great
Society was a comprehensive affirmation.

Every time I correspond with you, I am reminded again of how you use
fashionable buzzwords without really knowing their meaning. This,
below, is a really gross example of your ignorance about your own
country.

We can't really have a meaningful exchange if you don't read or
understand my posts.

On Nov 8, 9:35*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Andre Jute top posted: Ugh. You live in a social democracy already, Cole.. All Americans do.
Hoover started it, Roosevelt fixed it in the American consciousness,
the GI Bill made equality of opportunity a reality for thousands of
poor boys by giving them an upperclass education, and Johnson's Great
Society was a comprehensive affirmation.

Oh please! The US is the country that figuratively tells the mentally
ill and disabled to go **** themselves (please go off and die someplace
where people will not see you do it). The politics of the last 30 years
have been of greed, meanness and viciousness.

Not that Mr. Jute would have a clue (based on his accounts of privileged
upbringing and travel in business/advertising circles).

Tsch! Tsch! You should do your research, Tom. Where do you get his
crap from? "Privileged upbringing." It is well known that I never
owned pair of long trousers until I went up to college on a
scholarship. "Travel." I lived in different countries because I was a
political exile, or because my superiors at work sent me those
countries.

As for the affordable educational opportunities, those went away in the
US about 15 years ago. The "American Dream" of advancement was injured
by Reagan and finished off by Bush/Clinton/Bush II and the Republican
Congresses.

Every time I correspond with you, I am reminded again of how you use
fashionable buzzwords without really knowing their meaning. This,
below, is a really gross example of your ignorance about your own
country.

Some of us have had to live through the war on the working classes
conducted the last 30 years in the US. Mr. Jute appears to NOT have been
among this group.

Yeah, protectionism is really going to work, just like it worked every
time before. American workers just priced themselves out of the
market. And the people who're whining loudest for protectionism are
the same people who want to make it impossible for American workers
ever again to be efficient, by demands to keep oil prices high, for
instance, by demands that the US government join stupid,
counterproductive environmental schemes like the Kyoto Agreement.

Andre Jute
An economist with a long memory

On Nov 8, 10:39*am, (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
Andre Jute writes:
There were decades, amounting to almost a century, when the
Republicans were the most liberal party in US politics. Meanwhile
the Democrate were City Hall ward heelers, Tammany Hall crooks
by any other name.

..or community organizers!

Block captains by any other name. -- AJ

On Nov 8, 7:03*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Ugh. You live in a social democracy already, Cole. All Americans do.
Hoover started it, Roosevelt fixed it in the American consciousness,
the GI Bill made equality of opportunity a reality for thousands of
poor boys by giving them an upperclass education, and Johnson's Great
Society was a comprehensive affirmation.

Every time I correspond with you, I am reminded again of how you use
fashionable buzzwords without really knowing their meaning. This,
below, is a really gross example of your ignorance about your own
country.

We can't really have a meaningful exchange if you don't read or
understand my posts.

But there's nothing to understand, Cole. I'm correcting a factual
error in something Chalo sent, very possibly with his tongue in his
cheek, and you're running around screeching that I attacked FDR. I
don't see why the observable fact that FDR continued Hoover's policies
gives you such angst.

Here is Chalo's misinformation again:

Andre Jute wrote:
The Roosevelt New Deal policies were all foreshadowed by the relief
policies of the Hoover Administration. Hoover was a Republican.
(Hoover before he was president planned and executed relief for
Central European countries. He was a very solid liberal do-gooder
indeed.

Chalo wrote:
Hoover so opposed the New Deal that he offered FDR the opportunity to
take office early if he'd only give up that part of his plan of
action. Doesn't seem that liberal to me. Fortunately, Roosevelt
turned down his offer.

If you want to prove that Chalo's little whimsy is factual, go right
ahead. But meanwhile, you've merely hurled accusations. You haven't
disproved a word I've said, or quoted.

Andre Jute
I can give you the secret of dealing with engineers in two words -- re-
iterate!

Andre Jute wrote:
On Nov 8, 10:39 am, (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
Andre Jute writes:
There were decades, amounting to almost a century, when the
Republicans were the most liberal party in US politics. Meanwhile
the Democrate were City Hall ward heelers, Tammany Hall crooks
by any other name.

..or community organizers!

Block captains by any other name. -- AJ

Street walkers. (Err, /activists/.) -- BS