Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 10/29/2017 10:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-28 17:18, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:09:28 -0700, Joerg


Well, since you mentioned it. My two grandfathers, neither of whom
ever had a road accident. One died at 92 and the other at 87. My
father never had a road accident although he did get a speeding ticket
once, died at 87. My mother had one "accident", a guy ran a red light
and tee-boned her car, no speeding tickets, died at 86. All deaths
were considered "natural".

Do you really believe that safety belts would have benefited them?


Counting on luck alone is not smart. The father of a friend's wife died
from the consequences of a minor fender bender at an intersection
because he didn't wear a belt. That accident was 100% survivable. Or
would have been ...

I'd be interested to see the difference in one's lifetime odds of dying
in a traffic crash wearing seatbelts vs. not wearing them. I suspect the
difference isn't tremendous, since most people die of other things anyway.

Having said that: I do buckle up each time I ride or drive. That's
mostly because there is some benefit, and zero detriment.

However, I willingly ride in my friend's Model A that has no belts. When
our daughter got married, they rode from the wedding to the reception in
an elegant antique car with no belts, and nobody worried about the
possible tragedy of a wedding day fatality.

And if I, as a passenger, have to take my seatbelt off to reach
something in the back seat, remove a jacket or whatever, I don't hesitate.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 21:55:11 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:08:25 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

And if you DO try you have cars behind you honking their horns.

I'm pretty sure that the last time someone honked at me, I was in New
York -- and we moved here in the first year of the new millennium.

In Albany County, New York, honking upon seeing a bicycle on a county
road was part of the culture. Some of them forgot, and honked *after*
passing. Often, one could inhibit the honk by riding in the middle of
the lane, then shifting into the right wheel track after conspicuously
turning one's head.

Honking didn't happen on city streets.

Here "honking" has an association between honk and meaning. "Beep"
usually means "I see you". "Beeep" may mean "I'm coming through" and
"Beeeeeeeeeep" is what you hear just before the crash.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 22:59:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/29/2017 10:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-28 17:18, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:09:28 -0700, Joerg


Well, since you mentioned it. My two grandfathers, neither of whom
ever had a road accident. One died at 92 and the other at 87. My
father never had a road accident although he did get a speeding ticket
once, died at 87. My mother had one "accident", a guy ran a red light
and tee-boned her car, no speeding tickets, died at 86. All deaths
were considered "natural".

Do you really believe that safety belts would have benefited them?


Counting on luck alone is not smart. The father of a friend's wife died
from the consequences of a minor fender bender at an intersection
because he didn't wear a belt. That accident was 100% survivable. Or
would have been ...

I'd be interested to see the difference in one's lifetime odds of dying
in a traffic crash wearing seatbelts vs. not wearing them. I suspect the
difference isn't tremendous, since most people die of other things anyway.

Having said that: I do buckle up each time I ride or drive. That's
mostly because there is some benefit, and zero detriment.

However, I willingly ride in my friend's Model A that has no belts. When
our daughter got married, they rode from the wedding to the reception in
an elegant antique car with no belts, and nobody worried about the
possible tragedy of a wedding day fatality.

And if I, as a passenger, have to take my seatbelt off to reach
something in the back seat, remove a jacket or whatever, I don't hesitate.

One of the problems is that there are significant differences between
age groups and even sex. Women driver have about 1 fatality per 9,328
licensed female drivers. Males have 1/3847. I'm sure that teenage
drives are even higher. I also suspect that the driver of a 1927 Model
A probably worries a lot about anyone even getting close to his
fenders :-)

I've also wondered what the effect of overall insurance coverage is.
Here, if you ding someone's fender you park, call the insurance
company and they send a guy out on a motorcycle. The insurance guy
checks the policies, checks the vehicle identification and that is it.
The guy with the ding takes his car to the shop and they fix it and
send the bill to the insurance company.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 5:27:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 12:08:44 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Big snip
Oh ****! I've ridden many hundreds of miles off road in dry and wet sand, mud, heavy rain, rutted roads/trails and did so on an MTB with cantilever brakes and NEVER had trouble stopping either when I needed to or when I wanted too. I've ridden on ice and in 4 inches+ deep snowand also never had trouble stopping.

Perhaps you ride too fast for the conditions/sight lines or you don't keep your brakes adjusted properly.

Really? I have trouble standing up on ice. There is a point at which you don't want super-strong brakes.

-- Jay Beattie.

When winter comes I take my MTB with big wide spaced knobs on the 26" x 2.125" tires, to an outdoor icerink where I lower the air pressure in the tires quite a bit. Then I practice riding and lightly touching the REAR brake only. Riding on ice is where you definitely don't want to use the front brake much if at all.

If Joerg rode on ice and used his super-powerful front disc brake he'd be feeling really down really fast.

BTW, @ Joerg, when I said I rode hundreds of miles off-road, I meant each year. For some very strange reason I don't wear out my rims very fast even thouh I use cantilever brakes. I ride according to the conditions. Again, traction is the MAIN limiting factor in my braking off-road with or without the bicycle fully loaded for 2+ weeks touring off-road. Asusual YOUR needsare fardifferent from most everyone elses'

Cheers

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

BTW, @ Joerg, when I said I rode hundreds of miles off-road, I meant each year. For some very strange reason I don't wear out my rims very fast even thouh I use cantilever brakes. I ride according to the conditions. Again, traction is the MAIN limiting factor in my braking off-road with or without the bicycle fully loaded for 2+ weeks touring off-road. Asusual YOUR needsare fardifferent from most everyone elses'

I think a lot of the differences depend on riding style. I was once on a mountain
bike ride when a different guy's rim split from wear at the braking surface..
Disc brakes would have prevented that, I'm sure.

But I assume that his normal riding was almost as heroic and gnarly as Joerg's.
I've done some of that when I was much younger - for example riding around
some abandoned strip mines with younger friends and doing things I'd never
do now.

But "off road" or "mountain biking" doesn't have to be risky or gnarly,
or require disc brakes or special equipment. See
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/GrownUps.htm

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/29/2017 12:02 PM, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:04:58 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:06:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

[ ... ]


If the choice is to run into a car door or be run over by a car then I
think I'd get off and walk.

In practice, at least in my experience, the actual choice is between the
_risk_ of getting hit by an opening door, and the _risk_ of a motorist
deliberately running me over from behind.

In my experience, the latter risk is almost zero. Consider, we're almost
certainly talking about a place where there are witnesses, because the
situation requires people parking, getting out of their cars, opposing
traffic that would prevent the guy behind from changing lanes, etc.
There just aren't that many psychopaths who would risk prison terms by
deliberately running you over, especially because it would slow them down.

On the other hand, the person doing the dooring doesn't have to be a
psychopath. He just has to be inattentive. There are lots and lots of
those people.

Now, for corroboration: I have definitely had situations where a door
popped open, and I would have been doored if I had been riding within
reach. But while I've occasionally (but rarely) had motorists honk or
yell when I claim a lane, I've never had one run me over.

And let's remember that dooring can be fatal. If the door snags your
right handlebar, the bike whips to the right and you are instantaneously
thrown to the left, directly into the path of the cars you were so
worried about.

Where would these witnesses come from? The cars that simply continued driving?

I don't know, Tom, but let me repeat: I've had some motorists act
displeased when I've ridden at lane center. I've never had one run me
over. I've never known another cyclist who had that happen.

It seems to me that a driver who is screaming and honking is extremely
*unlikely* to actually hit you. It *could* happen if he's in poor
control of his vehicle, or is completely psychotic, but that's not the
way to bet.

The ones to watch out for seem to look directly at you, but the internal
picture just never develops, no malice at all. Riding further out in
the road does seem to help, because they are actively looking for motor
vehicle traffic.

--

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:09:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2017 12:02 PM, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:04:58 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:06:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 1:24:49 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 13:37:00 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Joerg writes:

On 2017-10-24 17:21, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:47:12 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

[ ... ]

The reason can be summed up in one word: Rain :-)

But last Sunday I started out my "weekend" ride in the rain. It had
been raining nearly all night and the roads had a lot of water on them
- note we have been having floods here in Bangkok lately - but it
appeared that the rain was ending so off I went.

Unfortunately my weather forecasting facility wasn't working very well
and I rode 20 Km of a 30 Km ride in light rain and flooded roads in
many places. I was splashing through water in some places and cars
were splashing through (and splashing me) in others.

Of course, Sunday is much lighter traffic then on work days but still,
Bangkok is rated as one of the cities with the most chaotic traffic
in the world, and I did have to stop suddenly several time, on flooded
roads with wet wheels and brakes.

My brakes worked just as they do in the dry. Back brake stops me
somewhat slowly and front brake stops rather suddenly, both brakes
together provides best stopping. No long wait after grabbing a brake
lever although I did think of you with your stopping problems and I
have the feeling that the brake lever pressure might be a tiny bit
more to stop in the rain but if it was it was so little that it
couldn't be quantified.

But of course I am using quality brake pads. Why it costs me US$12.12
a wheel just for pads alone.... but they do last a year or more.


It seems Californian rain and Thai rain aren't the same. When it rains
heavily and I have to do a surprise emergency stop after not having
used the brakes for a while there is 1-2sec of nada, absolutely
nothing. It makes no difference whatsoever whether I use $17
high-falutin Koolstop rain-rated pads or $4 Clarks pads. The
experience of other riders around here and in this NG is similar.

I don't understand the difference myself. When it's really raining,
meaning there's a continuous film of water on the road and a rooster
tail shooting forward off the front tire, I ride like a little old lady,
because of the delay in braking. Especially when it's dark, and leaves
and other blown down crap cover the road.

I suspect that may be the secret. I've never been "doored", perhaps
because if I have to ride past a line of parked cars where a door
might be opened I either slow down or ride further enough away that a
door wouldn't hit me.

Here the bike lane can be so narrow that the car door on a two-door totally covers the lane and there's no place to dodge because passing cars will spot that and not let you out.

If the choice is to run into a car door or be run over by a car then I
think I'd get off and walk.

In practice, at least in my experience, the actual choice is between the
_risk_ of getting hit by an opening door, and the _risk_ of a motorist
deliberately running me over from behind.

In my experience, the latter risk is almost zero. Consider, we're almost
certainly talking about a place where there are witnesses, because the
situation requires people parking, getting out of their cars, opposing
traffic that would prevent the guy behind from changing lanes, etc.
There just aren't that many psychopaths who would risk prison terms by
deliberately running you over, especially because it would slow them down.

On the other hand, the person doing the dooring doesn't have to be a
psychopath. He just has to be inattentive. There are lots and lots of
those people.

Now, for corroboration: I have definitely had situations where a door
popped open, and I would have been doored if I had been riding within
reach. But while I've occasionally (but rarely) had motorists honk or
yell when I claim a lane, I've never had one run me over.

And let's remember that dooring can be fatal. If the door snags your
right handlebar, the bike whips to the right and you are instantaneously
thrown to the left, directly into the path of the cars you were so
worried about.

Where would these witnesses come from? The cars that simply continued driving?

I don't know, Tom, but let me repeat: I've had some motorists act
displeased when I've ridden at lane center. I've never had one run me
over. I've never known another cyclist who had that happen.

It doesn't pay to be timid. Man up.

Frank, on your smartest day you are a moron. I live in the city center of one of the most populated areas in the US. Exactly how do you expect me to go over 3,000 this year, which is my lowest mileage in 20 years, without holding center lane?

You continually show your "Duhhhhh" and expect people to take you seriously. Is that because you were a teacher? A rather poor one I should think.

Why don't you discover a typo and mention that as discrediting my entry?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 7:01:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

BTW, @ Joerg, when I said I rode hundreds of miles off-road, I meant each year. For some very strange reason I don't wear out my rims very fast even thouh I use cantilever brakes. I ride according to the conditions. Again, traction is the MAIN limiting factor in my braking off-road with or without the bicycle fully loaded for 2+ weeks touring off-road. Asusual YOUR needsare fardifferent from most everyone elses'

I think a lot of the differences depend on riding style. I was once on a mountain
bike ride when a different guy's rim split from wear at the braking surface.
Disc brakes would have prevented that, I'm sure.

But I assume that his normal riding was almost as heroic and gnarly as Joerg's.
I've done some of that when I was much younger - for example riding around
some abandoned strip mines with younger friends and doing things I'd never
do now.

But "off road" or "mountain biking" doesn't have to be risky or gnarly,
or require disc brakes or special equipment. See
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/GrownUps.htm

Weight, mileage and weather conditions. Like I said, I work with a guy who commutes every day about 12 miles each way, and he was going through rims about every two years or less. He just switched to cable discs. He's a big guy. His rims were pretty robust Alex or some mid-fi brand.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 6:55:39 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:08:25 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

And if you DO try you have cars behind you honking their horns.

I'm pretty sure that the last time someone honked at me, I was in New
York -- and we moved here in the first year of the new millennium.

In Albany County, New York, honking upon seeing a bicycle on a county
road was part of the culture. Some of them forgot, and honked *after*
passing. Often, one could inhibit the honk by riding in the middle of
the lane, then shifting into the right wheel track after conspicuously
turning one's head.

Honking didn't happen on city streets.

On the freeways if you DARE to impede drivers by driving the speed limit they will sit on your bumper and blink their lights for you to get over. EVEN if they could move to the left and pass they instead will pull to your right, floorboard it past you and jerk suddenly in less than a car length in front of you.

This morning on TV they talked about 5 police agencies being involved in stopping a 100 man side show. When questioned the police spokes man acted as if this was no big deal. They only arrested 2 people. And those probably for possession of stolen cars.

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 8:47:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 22:59:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/29/2017 10:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-28 17:18, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:09:28 -0700, Joerg


Well, since you mentioned it. My two grandfathers, neither of whom
ever had a road accident. One died at 92 and the other at 87. My
father never had a road accident although he did get a speeding ticket
once, died at 87. My mother had one "accident", a guy ran a red light
and tee-boned her car, no speeding tickets, died at 86. All deaths
were considered "natural".

Do you really believe that safety belts would have benefited them?


Counting on luck alone is not smart. The father of a friend's wife died
from the consequences of a minor fender bender at an intersection
because he didn't wear a belt. That accident was 100% survivable. Or
would have been ...

I'd be interested to see the difference in one's lifetime odds of dying
in a traffic crash wearing seatbelts vs. not wearing them. I suspect the
difference isn't tremendous, since most people die of other things anyway.

Having said that: I do buckle up each time I ride or drive. That's
mostly because there is some benefit, and zero detriment.

However, I willingly ride in my friend's Model A that has no belts. When
our daughter got married, they rode from the wedding to the reception in
an elegant antique car with no belts, and nobody worried about the
possible tragedy of a wedding day fatality.

And if I, as a passenger, have to take my seatbelt off to reach
something in the back seat, remove a jacket or whatever, I don't hesitate.

One of the problems is that there are significant differences between
age groups and even sex. Women driver have about 1 fatality per 9,328
licensed female drivers. Males have 1/3847. I'm sure that teenage
drives are even higher. I also suspect that the driver of a 1927 Model
A probably worries a lot about anyone even getting close to his
fenders :-)

I've also wondered what the effect of overall insurance coverage is.
Here, if you ding someone's fender you park, call the insurance
company and they send a guy out on a motorcycle. The insurance guy
checks the policies, checks the vehicle identification and that is it.
The guy with the ding takes his car to the shop and they fix it and
send the bill to the insurance company.

You rarely have to worry someone is actually going to run you over. After all if might get blood on their car that they'd have to wash off. But the continuous threats are tiring. When I get back from a long city ride - say my home down to Palo Alto along Hesperian then back again - some 50 miles - I will be threatened at least two dozen times with cars trying to nudge me off the road. Even with open lanes they could easily pass in. Another thing is that you will be riding along and a car will come up behind you fast, swerve around you and turn directly into a driveway that causes you to slam on the brakes. Usually a store or something.

If the police were to ticket these people the state would never again have to raise taxes. And it would have the side effect of increasing road safety.. But the drivers would not stand for it.

Locally one of the people who was caught by a red light camera wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper. He was outraged that they were using cameras to record miscreants. There were a dozen follow-ups by others agreeing with him and not ONE comment to the contrary.