Speaking of Brakes

On 2017-08-07 16:22, Mark J. wrote:
On 8/6/2017 10:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/6/2017 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:20:18 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 22:35:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:46:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, wrote:
What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers
putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races.
These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock
wheels especially in less than perfect traction
conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have
reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a
double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?


Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and
I would MOST definitely not get them again. That bike
probably weighs about the same as my Colnago Dream HP which
is the lightest of the series at about 19 lbs. Crashing down
a hill a brake as powerful as a disc is asking for trouble.

Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem
with rim brakes and listening to people talking about going
deeper into a turn before having to put the brakes on makes
me wonder if they think that they are world class MTB
racers.

I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to
descend at speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether
if they had Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster? --
Cheers,

John B.

Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon
rims know the answer.

Lou

I was wrong. They apparently not descending at 100 kph. It now
seems that speeds are a bit faster, 130kph.... (81 mph) with rim
brakes. http://tinyurl.com/ybnfoquu

Those numbers are not believable unless you're descending a cinder
cone or ski slope. If you're even getting close to 80mph, you're not
turning or braking -- it's a dead straight, long run-out.


The situation can instantly change when a deer decides to bolt across
the road right in front of you. Happened to me on nice straight and
thus fast singletrack at a spot where I could not steer it off trail.
I was sure glad I had disc brakes at that point. It was a young buck
and he didn't even turn around, he just kept running until he
disappeared in the distance.

My deer experience was with a fawn on a steep, shaded metropark
downhill. His siblings and mom stayed to the side, but this guy just
ran out right in front of my 30+mph bike. I was sure glad I had
cantilever brakes at that point. ;-)


Deer seem to prefer jumping in front of us when we're going downhill.
I've had at least three such encounters. Uphill, not so much.

Do you suppose it's a deer conspiracy?


My encounters were on flat terrain. The closest call was on a trail
section where fit MTB riders easily travel at 20mph. I never hit one so
far but I have run over two squirrels lately. Also a fat rattlesnake
last year but luckily it wasn't coiled up so it couldn't easily strike me.

By far the most stupid animals seem to be turkeys (although squirrels
are close). They run along the trail, see me and then turn into the
trail. I guess they'd do the same if they saw a Union Pacific freight
train coming.

A scary encounter was when I woke up a doe that must have dozed off
right on the trail. Full brakes, lots of dust. It ran off a little,
stopped and somehow looked past me. I turned around and behind me was
her beau, big, with antlers and all, not looking very friendly.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2017-08-09 06:09, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 4:13:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-08 04:28, wrote:
I had an online dialogue with van owner installed a heaver front bar
solving van's handling wobbles.

I wrote about balance front n rear wit weight on what the designers
had intended n the post got front bar worked up criting his work

Know the real story abt language perception tween different
environment humans where the USA kayaker asked local SA fisherman abt
conditions for the yakkers route ?

Fisherman 'is windy'

French Navy pulled group off beach afer a week (?) of 75 mph winds.


In Northern Germany they'd call that a "stiff breeze".

Ha ha ha - he said "stiff".


That's how they literally say it, in German "steife Brise".

Someone in a pub I used to go in referred to a stiff drink as a; "stiffie" -
until someone pointed out what he was really asking for.................

That's how they literally say it, in German "steife Brise".

Someone in a pub I used to go in referred to a stiff drink as a; "stiffie" -
until someone pointed out what he was really asking for.................

Stiffies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Cw0QJU8ro

On 09/08/17 15:44, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-09 06:09, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 4:13:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-08 04:28, wrote:
I had an online dialogue with van owner installed a heaver front bar
solving van's handling wobbles.

I wrote about balance front n rear wit weight on what the designers
had intended n the post got front bar worked up criting his work

Know the real story abt language perception tween different
environment humans where the USA kayaker asked local SA fisherman abt
conditions for the yakkers route ?

Fisherman 'is windy'

French Navy pulled group off beach afer a week (?) of 75 mph winds.


In Northern Germany they'd call that a "stiff breeze".

Ha ha ha - he said "stiff".


That's how they literally say it, in German "steife Brise".

In my experience of living in Germany they will put out a weather
warning for anything gusting over Bf 5.

However, they won't bother for an againsterly.

On 2017-08-09 12:11, Tosspot wrote:
On 09/08/17 15:44, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-09 06:09, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 4:13:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-08 04:28, wrote:
I had an online dialogue with van owner installed a heaver front bar
solving van's handling wobbles.

I wrote about balance front n rear wit weight on what the designers
had intended n the post got front bar worked up criting his work

Know the real story abt language perception tween different
environment humans where the USA kayaker asked local SA fisherman abt
conditions for the yakkers route ?

Fisherman 'is windy'

French Navy pulled group off beach afer a week (?) of 75 mph winds.


In Northern Germany they'd call that a "stiff breeze".

Ha ha ha - he said "stiff".


That's how they literally say it, in German "steife Brise".

In my experience of living in Germany they will put out a weather
warning for anything gusting over Bf 5.


Not so much when I lived there but that was decades back.


However, they won't bother for an againsterly.


This ought to feel nice on a bicycle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87_FLEC8WdQ

I have ridden in similar weather in the Netherlands but not quite that bad.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

John B. wrote:
On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 07:51:23 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:20:18 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 22:35:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:46:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, wrote:
What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers putting
hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races. These things are
incredibly powerful and can easily lock wheels especially in less
than perfect traction conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have reduced
their power on the rear brakes by going from a double pivot to a
single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?


Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and I would
MOST definitely not get them again. That bike probably weighs about
the same as my Colnago Dream HP which is the lightest of the series
at about 19 lbs. Crashing down a hill a brake as powerful as a disc
is asking for trouble.

Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem with rim
brakes and listening to people talking about going deeper into a
turn before having to put the brakes on makes me wonder if they
think that they are world class MTB racers.

I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to descend at
speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether if they had
Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon rims know the answer.

Lou

I was wrong. They apparently not descending at 100 kph. It now seems
that speeds are a bit faster, 130kph.... (81 mph) with rim brakes.
http://tinyurl.com/ybnfoquu

Those numbers are not believable unless you're descending a cinder cone
or ski slope. If you're even getting close to 80mph, you're not turning
or braking -- it's a dead straight, long run-out.


They may not be believable but I posted the reference which stated
that:

Leigh Howard showed that he sped along at 122kph at one point on stage
nine of the Tour de France
Read more at:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/ra...Kvt4TXCBOMH.99

Jeremy Roy (FDJ) recorded 127kph (79mph) on the descent of the Côte
dela Comella

Marcus Burghardt (BMC) topped out at 130.7 (81.2mph) on the long
downhill section from the first climb, according to his Strava upload.

I had assumed that the TdeF is held on European highways.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Max speed is fairly unreliable for such technology, i.e. GPS which can
easily be fooled by wooded areas and hills of which the TDF has plenty,
TV/websites do seem to go for some tall stories regarding speeds
reached/gradients of hills.

The few times I have checked TDF riders strava feeds the descents are much
more human speeds i.e. 40/50mph it's the climbs that is frankly inhuman!


Roger Merriman

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 4:19:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
If the car rotors are at half life n your environment is up/down, wet/wetter...consider mettalic pads for the last halflife.

Shorter n more precise stopping than ceramic. Good feel.

What is the difference between metallic and semi-metallic

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 06:49:03 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-06 13:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 9:57:07 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake
track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a
little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement
pads.


What kind? I get mind for $2/pair if I take four pairs, the longer
lasting ones. Including shipping. Even the inexpensive Clarks pads
for the road bike rim brakes cost more, let alone KoolStop.

OE finned pads:
https://www.westernbikeworks.com/pro...h-cooling-fins
The resin/organic pads wore out ridiculously quickly, and I took it
in the shorts because I needed a quick replacement and thought I
needed the finned pad -- which I didn't, but I did want metal. Next
time I'm shopping for the non-finned, cheap-o metal pads.


My impression is that the profit margins on bike parts are often huge.
How can a teeny li'l pair of pads cost more than the big fat one for cars?

I don't support such "premium pricing" or whatever that may be called
any longer so my brake pads come directly from Asia.

Similar for the road bike. When I wanted to replace the pads for the
Koolstop holders the price had gone up from $10 to about $20. For one
pair of rubber pads! So I got Clarks for under $4 instead, works just as
well.


I'm not sure whether it is relevant to the bicycle business but years
ago when I was doing a lot of photography I set out to buy a new Nikon
camera body and checked the prices in every shop in Singapore that
sold professional gear. It turned out that the shop I usually used -
it was close to the hotel where I normally stayed - had the same price
as all the other shops.

When I mentioned this to the salesman he laughed and told me that when
the average guy set out to buy a $1,000 camera body he usually checked
prices "all over town" but when he bought some little thing he didn't
bother so their prices for the "big stuff" had to be competitive with
everyone else, "but the markup of the small stuff might be as much as
100%".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 10:30:25 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-07 16:22, Mark J. wrote:
On 8/6/2017 10:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/6/2017 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:20:18 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 22:35:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:46:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, wrote:
What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers
putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races.
These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock
wheels especially in less than perfect traction
conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have
reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a
double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?


Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and
I would MOST definitely not get them again. That bike
probably weighs about the same as my Colnago Dream HP which
is the lightest of the series at about 19 lbs. Crashing down
a hill a brake as powerful as a disc is asking for trouble.

Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem
with rim brakes and listening to people talking about going
deeper into a turn before having to put the brakes on makes
me wonder if they think that they are world class MTB
racers.

I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to
descend at speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether
if they had Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster? --
Cheers,

John B.

Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon
rims know the answer.

Lou

I was wrong. They apparently not descending at 100 kph. It now
seems that speeds are a bit faster, 130kph.... (81 mph) with rim
brakes. http://tinyurl.com/ybnfoquu

Those numbers are not believable unless you're descending a cinder
cone or ski slope. If you're even getting close to 80mph, you're not
turning or braking -- it's a dead straight, long run-out.


The situation can instantly change when a deer decides to bolt across
the road right in front of you. Happened to me on nice straight and
thus fast singletrack at a spot where I could not steer it off trail.
I was sure glad I had disc brakes at that point. It was a young buck
and he didn't even turn around, he just kept running until he
disappeared in the distance.

My deer experience was with a fawn on a steep, shaded metropark
downhill. His siblings and mom stayed to the side, but this guy just
ran out right in front of my 30+mph bike. I was sure glad I had
cantilever brakes at that point. ;-)


Deer seem to prefer jumping in front of us when we're going downhill.
I've had at least three such encounters. Uphill, not so much.

Do you suppose it's a deer conspiracy?


My encounters were on flat terrain. The closest call was on a trail
section where fit MTB riders easily travel at 20mph. I never hit one so
far but I have run over two squirrels lately. Also a fat rattlesnake
last year but luckily it wasn't coiled up so it couldn't easily strike me..

By far the most stupid animals seem to be turkeys (although squirrels
are close). They run along the trail, see me and then turn into the
trail. I guess they'd do the same if they saw a Union Pacific freight
train coming.

A scary encounter was when I woke up a doe that must have dozed off
right on the trail. Full brakes, lots of dust. It ran off a little,
stopped and somehow looked past me. I turned around and behind me was
her beau, big, with antlers and all, not looking very friendly.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Another stupid animal is a two-legged one. You know, thoseo nes who ride bicycles extremely fast on trails where the rider KNOWS that someone just might be coming from the opposite direction or who knows that some critter may cross the trail too. Every day i see such riders on the rail-trails or other non-motor vehicle allowed trails hereabouts. those inconsiderate rider bomb along wherethere are blind corners and such and never give a thoughtthat manybe, just maybe, there might be someone stopped on the trail ahead of them or coming towards them.

I'd love to mount a LAW* on my bicycle for just such riders.

Cheers

*Light Anti-tank Weapon

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 6:14:40 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 06:49:03 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-06 13:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 9:57:07 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake
track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a
little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement
pads.


What kind? I get mind for $2/pair if I take four pairs, the longer
lasting ones. Including shipping. Even the inexpensive Clarks pads
for the road bike rim brakes cost more, let alone KoolStop.

OE finned pads:
https://www.westernbikeworks.com/pro...h-cooling-fins
The resin/organic pads wore out ridiculously quickly, and I took it
in the shorts because I needed a quick replacement and thought I
needed the finned pad -- which I didn't, but I did want metal. Next
time I'm shopping for the non-finned, cheap-o metal pads.


My impression is that the profit margins on bike parts are often huge.
How can a teeny li'l pair of pads cost more than the big fat one for cars?

I don't support such "premium pricing" or whatever that may be called
any longer so my brake pads come directly from Asia.

Similar for the road bike. When I wanted to replace the pads for the
Koolstop holders the price had gone up from $10 to about $20. For one
pair of rubber pads! So I got Clarks for under $4 instead, works just as
well.


I'm not sure whether it is relevant to the bicycle business but years
ago when I was doing a lot of photography I set out to buy a new Nikon
camera body and checked the prices in every shop in Singapore that
sold professional gear. It turned out that the shop I usually used -
it was close to the hotel where I normally stayed - had the same price
as all the other shops.

When I mentioned this to the salesman he laughed and told me that when
the average guy set out to buy a $1,000 camera body he usually checked
prices "all over town" but when he bought some little thing he didn't
bother so their prices for the "big stuff" had to be competitive with
everyone else, "but the markup of the small stuff might be as much as
100%".

I have spent a lot of time in bicycle shops gabbing with owners or mechanics and I see how much business they do. If I had the sort of money to pay their prices I would. I guess I did one time. I was looking through my resume since after my concussion I can't remember any of the places I worked but can do any engineering job set in front of me. Get this:

"Provided customer service and applications interfacing for customers on the VME products line. Provided technical support to important customers such as NASA International Space Station Project and other NASA projects, Motorola, Ericsson Telephone, Lockheed Aerospace and others."

International Space Station??? Lockheed Aerospace??? Holy crap - no wonder I had so much problems with my wife. The pressure I must have been under.

Now that I don't work she decided that I'm better than nothing. And I can look the other way at the incredible messes she makes.