Speaking of Brakes

On 8/5/2017 7:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2017 15:00:35 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, wrote:
What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races. These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock wheels especially in less than perfect traction conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?


Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

Are single pivot brakes actual less powerful then dual pivot? I had
always assumed that the ratio of the length of the arms on the cable
side of the pivot and the brake pads end determined the "power" of a
brake. Although admittedly I never gave it much thought other then
single pivot brakes seemed more difficult to get "centered".
--
Cheers,

John B.


Yes.

If you look at a single pivot and a dual, noting ratio of
upper side to lower side, (pivot to anchor vs pivot to brake
shoe) it's obvious. Not dramatic but clearly different. And
DP are inherently heavier.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:20:18 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 22:35:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:46:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, wrote:
What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers
putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races.
These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock
wheels especially in less than perfect traction
conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have
reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a
double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?


Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and
I would MOST definitely not get them again. That bike
probably weighs about the same as my Colnago Dream HP which
is the lightest of the series at about 19 lbs. Crashing down
a hill a brake as powerful as a disc is asking for trouble.

Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem
with rim brakes and listening to people talking about going
deeper into a turn before having to put the brakes on makes
me wonder if they think that they are world class MTB
racers.

I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to
descend at speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether
if they had Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster? --
Cheers,

John B.

Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon
rims know the answer.

Lou

I was wrong. They apparently not descending at 100 kph. It now
seems that speeds are a bit faster, 130kph.... (81 mph) with rim
brakes. http://tinyurl.com/ybnfoquu

Those numbers are not believable unless you're descending a cinder
cone or ski slope. If you're even getting close to 80mph, you're not
turning or braking -- it's a dead straight, long run-out.


The situation can instantly change when a deer decides to bolt across
the road right in front of you. Happened to me on nice straight and thus
fast singletrack at a spot where I could not steer it off trail. I was
sure glad I had disc brakes at that point. It was a young buck and he
didn't even turn around, he just kept running until he disappeared in
the distance.


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track
rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more
complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads.


What kind? I get mind for $2/pair if I take four pairs, the longer
lasting ones. Including shipping. Even the inexpensive Clarks pads for
the road bike rim brakes cost more, let alone KoolStop.


They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger
braking force -- particularly rear braking.

Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise,
but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain.
On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.


Ever since I rode the first bike with disc brakes I was sold, 100%. The
only reason for not having discs on my road bike is that the frame has
no mounts for them. If I ever need a new frame or road bike it will have
discs.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 8/6/2017 11:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 7:51:28 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads. They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger braking force -- particularly rear braking.

Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise, but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain. On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.

Jay - do you normally ride at such a speed that heavy braking with any sort of brake is necessary?

That's what I've wondered. While I'm not as fast as I once was*, I don't
ride super-slow. I especially enjoy blasting down hills. But I almost
never have to brake hard. The very few times I recall having to do so,
my brakes (cantilevers on most of my bikes) did the job just fine.

I think an unrecognized factor is watching and planning ahead as you
ride. I've seen riders who seem to get surprised by every pothole, just
as I've seen motorists race up to a clot on the freeway and get stuck
behind a slow truck. The further ahead you observe, the smoother your
progress and the less you use your brakes.

And I'm talking about road riding here, mostly in dry weather. Yes, if I
were a year-round commuter in Portland area hills or a mountain biker
who loved mud, I'd probably want discs.

(*The older I get, the faster I was.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/6/2017 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:

Anyhow, with discs downhill sections can be ridden more aggressively
because they allow you to reach into the brakes later and decelerate
more abruptly before tight turns. Living in the hills I feel the
difference almost every time when I ride the MTB on streets. The MTB
corners poorly on asphalt but I can bomb towards the turn, go behind the
saddle and then reach in hard.

That behavior is what's known as "risk compensation."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-08-06 10:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/6/2017 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:

Anyhow, with discs downhill sections can be ridden more aggressively
because they allow you to reach into the brakes later and decelerate
more abruptly before tight turns. Living in the hills I feel the
difference almost every time when I ride the MTB on streets. The MTB
corners poorly on asphalt but I can bomb towards the turn, go behind
the saddle and then reach in hard.

That behavior is what's known as "risk compensation."


Yes, and I admit it. But it's a fairly safe risk as long as you know
there's no sand or other stuff on the road surface. MTBs in general are
"risk compensation vehicles" because we ride through dirt much faster
than back in the days when normal bikes had to be used.

In a race this is different. There every second counts.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 8/6/2017 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:20:18 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 22:35:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:46:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, wrote:
What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers
putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races.
These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock
wheels especially in less than perfect traction
conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have
reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a
double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?


Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and
I would MOST definitely not get them again. That bike
probably weighs about the same as my Colnago Dream HP which
is the lightest of the series at about 19 lbs. Crashing down
a hill a brake as powerful as a disc is asking for trouble.

Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem
with rim brakes and listening to people talking about going
deeper into a turn before having to put the brakes on makes
me wonder if they think that they are world class MTB
racers.

I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to
descend at speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether
if they had Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster? --
Cheers,

John B.

Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon
rims know the answer.

Lou

I was wrong. They apparently not descending at 100 kph. It now
seems that speeds are a bit faster, 130kph.... (81 mph) with rim
brakes. http://tinyurl.com/ybnfoquu

Those numbers are not believable unless you're descending a cinder
cone or ski slope. If you're even getting close to 80mph, you're not
turning or braking -- it's a dead straight, long run-out.


The situation can instantly change when a deer decides to bolt across
the road right in front of you. Happened to me on nice straight and thus
fast singletrack at a spot where I could not steer it off trail. I was
sure glad I had disc brakes at that point. It was a young buck and he
didn't even turn around, he just kept running until he disappeared in
the distance.

My deer experience was with a fawn on a steep, shaded metropark
downhill. His siblings and mom stayed to the side, but this guy just
ran out right in front of my 30+mph bike. I was sure glad I had
cantilever brakes at that point. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 7:05:42 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/6/2017 11:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 7:51:28 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads. They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger braking force -- particularly rear braking.

Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise, but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain. On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.

Jay - do you normally ride at such a speed that heavy braking with any sort of brake is necessary?

That's what I've wondered. While I'm not as fast as I once was*, I don't
ride super-slow. I especially enjoy blasting down hills. But I almost
never have to brake hard. The very few times I recall having to do so,
my brakes (cantilevers on most of my bikes) did the job just fine.

I think an unrecognized factor is watching and planning ahead as you
ride. I've seen riders who seem to get surprised by every pothole, just
as I've seen motorists race up to a clot on the freeway and get stuck
behind a slow truck. The further ahead you observe, the smoother your
progress and the less you use your brakes.

And I'm talking about road riding here, mostly in dry weather. Yes, if I
were a year-round commuter in Portland area hills or a mountain biker
who loved mud, I'd probably want discs.

(*The older I get, the faster I was.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, I have to brake hard before every hairpin in a descent, from 60-70 km/hr to 20-30 km/hr. I checked my data from my last week in the Dolomites a couple of weeks ago.

Lou

On 8/6/2017 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 7:05:42 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/6/2017 11:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 7:51:28 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads. They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger braking force -- particularly rear braking.

Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise, but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain. On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.

Jay - do you normally ride at such a speed that heavy braking with any sort of brake is necessary?

That's what I've wondered. While I'm not as fast as I once was*, I don't
ride super-slow. I especially enjoy blasting down hills. But I almost
never have to brake hard. The very few times I recall having to do so,
my brakes (cantilevers on most of my bikes) did the job just fine.

I think an unrecognized factor is watching and planning ahead as you
ride. I've seen riders who seem to get surprised by every pothole, just
as I've seen motorists race up to a clot on the freeway and get stuck
behind a slow truck. The further ahead you observe, the smoother your
progress and the less you use your brakes.

And I'm talking about road riding here, mostly in dry weather. Yes, if I
were a year-round commuter in Portland area hills or a mountain biker
who loved mud, I'd probably want discs.

(*The older I get, the faster I was.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, I have to brake hard before every hairpin in a descent, from 60-70 km/hr to 20-30 km/hr. I checked my data from my last week in the Dolomites a couple of weeks ago.

Your terrain and your riding style are different from mine, and probably
from most cyclists. We have no mountains in my riding territory
(although some hills are surprisingly long and steep). The few times
I've ridden in mountains, I rode conservatively; I was touring, not racing.

I remember one descending one Rocky Mountain pass (Lolo Pass) with a
full camping load, where I worried a bit about overheating rims as I
braked to control my speed. I therefore descended a bit faster than I
otherwise might have. But my wife and daughter both descended much
slower and experienced no problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 8:18:15 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/6/2017 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 7:05:42 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/6/2017 11:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 7:51:28 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads. They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger braking force -- particularly rear braking.

Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise, but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain. On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.

Jay - do you normally ride at such a speed that heavy braking with any sort of brake is necessary?

That's what I've wondered. While I'm not as fast as I once was*, I don't
ride super-slow. I especially enjoy blasting down hills. But I almost
never have to brake hard. The very few times I recall having to do so,
my brakes (cantilevers on most of my bikes) did the job just fine.

I think an unrecognized factor is watching and planning ahead as you
ride. I've seen riders who seem to get surprised by every pothole, just
as I've seen motorists race up to a clot on the freeway and get stuck
behind a slow truck. The further ahead you observe, the smoother your
progress and the less you use your brakes.

And I'm talking about road riding here, mostly in dry weather. Yes, if I
were a year-round commuter in Portland area hills or a mountain biker
who loved mud, I'd probably want discs.

(*The older I get, the faster I was.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, I have to brake hard before every hairpin in a descent, from 60-70 km/hr to 20-30 km/hr. I checked my data from my last week in the Dolomites a couple of weeks ago.

Your terrain and your riding style are different from mine, and probably
from most cyclists. We have no mountains in my riding territory
(although some hills are surprisingly long and steep). The few times
I've ridden in mountains, I rode conservatively; I was touring, not racing.

I remember one descending one Rocky Mountain pass (Lolo Pass) with a
full camping load, where I worried a bit about overheating rims as I
braked to control my speed. I therefore descended a bit faster than I
otherwise might have. But my wife and daughter both descended much
slower and experienced no problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Heh??
Around my house the terrain is dead flat. Any flatter is not possible, so I hardly brake hard. But the same bike is used in the mountains, a day ride by car away.

Lou

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 12:57:07 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:20:18 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 22:35:39 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:46:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, wrote:
What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers
putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races.
These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock
wheels especially in less than perfect traction
conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have
reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a
double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?


Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and
I would MOST definitely not get them again. That bike
probably weighs about the same as my Colnago Dream HP which
is the lightest of the series at about 19 lbs. Crashing down
a hill a brake as powerful as a disc is asking for trouble.

Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem
with rim brakes and listening to people talking about going
deeper into a turn before having to put the brakes on makes
me wonder if they think that they are world class MTB
racers.

I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to
descend at speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether
if they had Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster? --
Cheers,

John B.

Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon
rims know the answer.

Lou

I was wrong. They apparently not descending at 100 kph. It now
seems that speeds are a bit faster, 130kph.... (81 mph) with rim
brakes. http://tinyurl.com/ybnfoquu

Those numbers are not believable unless you're descending a cinder
cone or ski slope. If you're even getting close to 80mph, you're not
turning or braking -- it's a dead straight, long run-out.


The situation can instantly change when a deer decides to bolt across
the road right in front of you. Happened to me on nice straight and thus
fast singletrack at a spot where I could not steer it off trail. I was
sure glad I had disc brakes at that point. It was a young buck and he
didn't even turn around, he just kept running until he disappeared in
the distance.


With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track
rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more
complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads.


What kind? I get mind for $2/pair if I take four pairs, the longer
lasting ones. Including shipping. Even the inexpensive Clarks pads for
the road bike rim brakes cost more, let alone KoolStop.


They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger
braking force -- particularly rear braking.

Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise,
but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain.
On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.


Ever since I rode the first bike with disc brakes I was sold, 100%. The
only reason for not having discs on my road bike is that the frame has
no mounts for them. If I ever need a new frame or road bike it will have
discs.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have CANTILEVER BRAKES on my touring bike and also on my MTBs. Funny thing is that on a dirt or gravel road I can LOCK UP THE WHEELS with JUST TWO FINGERS on the DROP-BAR brake levers. Once the wheels lock up and you start skidding no more braking power is going to slow you down any faster.

Cheers