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#861
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Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"
In article ,
dgk wrote: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500, (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote: Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation indefinitely. I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq. That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about. But, assuming we do withdraw the military, things will likely come together in Iraq, although perhaps not to the liking of former US corporation Haliburton. Turkey will not allow the Kurds an independent country so they will have to negotiate. Saudi Arabia will not allow the Sunnis to be denied oil wealth so the Shias and Kurds will have to negotiate. Iran will back the Shia, so the Kurds and Sunnis will have to negotiate. Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in violence because of the bad old United States. Yeah, right. Nobody "has to" negotiate with anyone. If Turkey won't allow the Kurds to set up an independent country, and the Kurds want that bad enough, they don't have to negotiate; they can fight. Even if Saudi Arabia doesn't like what the Shiites are doing, Saudi Arabia lacks the military might to do anything about it. So the Sunnis and the Shiites can continue to fight. And they'll both fight the Kurds and the Turks. And that's not even considering the fighting within those groups. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
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#862
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Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"
Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
In article , dgk wrote: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500, (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote: Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation indefinitely. I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq. That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about. But, assuming we do withdraw the military, things will likely come together in Iraq, although perhaps not to the liking of former US corporation Haliburton. Turkey will not allow the Kurds an independent country so they will have to negotiate. Saudi Arabia will not allow the Sunnis to be denied oil wealth so the Shias and Kurds will have to negotiate. Iran will back the Shia, so the Kurds and Sunnis will have to negotiate. Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in violence because of the bad old United States. Yeah, right. Nobody "has to" negotiate with anyone. If Turkey won't allow the Kurds to set up an independent country, and the Kurds want that bad enough, they don't have to negotiate; they can fight. Even if Saudi Arabia doesn't like what the Shiites are doing, Saudi Arabia lacks the military might to do anything about it. So the Sunnis and the Shiites can continue to fight. And they'll both fight the Kurds and the Turks. And that's not even considering the fighting within those groups. There's always gas to eliminate the problem and leave the buildings standing. I would vote for about 10 Megatons each over Baghdad and Tehran but that might be politically incorrect to the Russians who would get a bit of fallout. We have now been there longer than WWII and accomplished much less, unless bankrupting the country counts for something. Bill Baka |
#863
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Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:17:17 -0700, Bill wrote:
dgk wrote: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500, (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote: In article , Clark F Morris wrote: The US took on a responsibility to those who cooperated with it after the invasion. How it treats those people may determine how US troops are treated in the future. Many people are risking their lives daily to make Iraq work. I for one don't want to see them left to the tender mercies of the various groups directing the suicide bombers. Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation indefinitely. I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq. That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about. We do have about 21 more months of 'you know who' and his 'hunting' buddy, so that is how long we will have too many troops there and not at home. I don't know if that's the case. The Democrats are really controlled by the same corporate interests as the Republicans. Well, most of the Democrats, certainly Hillary. I think the original plan, as advanced by the Project for a New American Century, was to install a government friendly to "American" interests. Now, my interests are not the same as those of GE, ADM, Halliburton, etc. But, let's face it, until things change dramatically our way of life requires big oil. But Chalabi, who was supposed to be the front of the friendly government, proved to have other interests, apparently those of Iran. The most astonishing thing to me was that, even before this all broke, our big ally in Iraq was the Committee for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. I mean really, we overthrew a guy who was a secular bulwark against Islamic extremism and replaced him with, what? |
#865
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Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"
In article ,
dgk wrote: On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:14:56 -0500, (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote: Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in violence because of the bad old United States. Most folks around the world want only two things, a place to live and a job. Islam, for the most part, is a peaceful religion. Extremists exist in all types of religions and exploit them for their own agendas. Remove the US occupation and the extremists will be on the outs. Fantasy. Utter fantasy. Remove the US occupation and you still have left every grudge, every grievance, every complaint that one Iraqi group has against another, not to mention the complaints they have with Iraq's neighbors (and Iraq's neighbors likely ambitions in Iraq). The idea that Iraq is filled with reasonable people turned to radicalism by the US occupation is simply a fairy tale. Look at Iran. Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs were clinging to power and there were large pro-western demonstrations. As soon as we invaded, the mullahs were firmly back in power. Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs in Iran had been in power for many years, and they still remain so. They were never in any danger of being ousted. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
#866
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Shoud there be a "freedom to pollute"?
On Apr 9, 8:35 pm, "Fred G. Mackey" wrote:
Dave Head wrote: On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 07:09:23 GMT, Bill wrote: So why are these people driving these lame ass SUV's? Again. People drive lame-ass SUV's because they occasionally need one and only have money enough for 1 vehicle. They occasionally need one because: That's the reason some people drive them. Others drive them for no good reason other than we have a thing called freedom in the US. I'd call it "freedom to pollute"... But should there be such a freedom, or freedom should be better understood to mean... Herbert J. Muller. (1964). Freedom in the Western World: From the Dark Ages to the Rise of Democracy "I am adhering to the broad but relatively neutral definition of freedom as 'the condition of being able to choose and carry out purposes.' This includes the most common meaning of the absence of external constraints, or freedom from coercion; the idea of actual ability with available means, or effective freedom to do what one wishes; and the assumption of a power of deliberate choice between known alternatives, involving freedom of mind and spirit, which is hardest to specify but still distinguishes human freedom from the ability of other animals to carry out their instinctive purposes. In the words of Christian Bay, 'A person is free to the extent that he has the capacity, the opportunity, and the incentive to give expression to what is in him and to develop his potentialities.' "So defined, I repeat, freedom means concretely freedoms of various kinds, which may be at least roughly specified. Among the most fundamental is political freedom, involving some means of control of rulers by the ruled, some protection of the individual against government by legal rights or civil liberties." But for most of history... The ruling powers tended to adopt one or a combination of these: plutocracy - rule through wealth militarism - rule through military power sacerdotalism - rule through religious dogma and practice oligarchy - rule through a small cabal "In general, the common people enjoyed little if any freedom, serving at the behest of their rulers. The rulers kept their subjects under control through conditioning them with religions which sanctioned the ruler's power. Common people were forced to work at mind- and body- destroying jobs which gave them no time or energy for reflective thought or unified reform activities." So the "freedom" to drive an SUV (Supersized Unnecessary Vehicle) has more to do with the freedom MONEY buys you (PLUTOCRACY) and little to do with human freedom (DEMOCRACY), in which we still may not do much better than the cavemen, with due respect to those who didn't use the stick as a way of life. "The outstanding ingredient which the Greeks contributed to the evolution of human freedom was the concept of democracy: the rule of citizens. The idea now became a part of human thought: that common people could and should govern themselves, without having to bow to a military, political, economic, or religious ruler. This concept was to play an important role throughout modern history, as people returned to the idea that they could rule themselves. As we shall see, this ideal of citizen self-rule is still unrealized, even in twenty-first- century America. However, the ideal continues to have a powerful influence over human thought and serves as a goal toward which we can aspire." http://www.hermes-press.com/history1.htm So, I guess, FREEDOM COMES IN A BICYCLE, at least democracy does... |
#867
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Occidental CEO got more than $400 million in 2006
On Apr 9, 9:40 pm, "di" wrote:
"donquijote1954" wrote in message oups.com... Lions and monkeys don't want the same. Lions dream of big and pompous. Monkeys are more into practical, fun things like bikes, motorcycles and EVs. And they are beautiful, just not pompous. The only areawhere you are #1 is in ribbons... http://blogorelli.typepad.com/photos...ed/ribbons.gif This doesn't make any sense at all to me, I guess you need to explain it. But then again, not much you ever say makes much sense. So many bumper stickers and ribbons on SUVs... I guess they want to show their support for the troops but keep burning gas like supporting terrorism. Or perhaps they just want to hide the latter fact. Anyway, this their latest bumper sticker... http://www.toppun.com/ProductImages/...rive_small.gif |
#868
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Shoud there be a "freedom to pollute"?
"So defined, I repeat, freedom means concretely freedoms of various
kinds, which may be at least roughly specified. Among the most fundamental is political freedom, involving some means of control of rulers by the ruled, some protection of the individual against government by legal rights or civil liberties." , and we all know how well that worked out. Sorry could not resist |
#869
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Shoud there be a "freedom to pollute"?
You mean freedom to kill ourselves on a bicycle is at least democracy.
Drivers have a superiority complex. They will never be motivated to govern themselves for the good of the people. Sad note eh! : ( |
#870
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promoting "smart growth"
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------------------------------------------------------------------------- Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Amy Blankenship" wrote in message ... "Baxter" wrote in message ... - "Amy Blankenship" wrote in message ... "Baxter" wrote in message ... "Amy Blankenship" wrote in message ... "Baxter" wrote in message ... "Amy Blankenship" wrote in message .. . "Baxter" wrote in message ... Do stay on track - the issue is whether we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on Iraqi's or whether we spend a tenth of that on our own people. (and yes, there are reports that elections are not particularly fair in LA.) Then why did you bring up your feeling that the people of Louisiana are somehow downtrodden in a way that Mississippians aren't? Your question is nonsensical. Obviously you don't have an answer then. No, your question is nonsensical in this context. Your question might be more appropriate in context with the US Attorneys firings that are in the news. I see you've learned one of George Conklin's less admirable techniques...If someone disagrees with you or questions you further, declare the comment/question irrelevant, drivel, or nonsensical. Nice :-) Then suppose you detail that relevance for us? That's what I was asking you to do. Let's see - you want *me* to explain the relelavance of *your* response?! That's the sort of thing Conklin does. |
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