A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Rides
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Ride an SUB not an SUV



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #861  
Old April 11th 07, 07:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Matthew T. Russotto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"

In article ,
dgk wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up
full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on
top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation
indefinitely.


I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government
is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq.
That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about.

But, assuming we do withdraw the military, things will likely come
together in Iraq, although perhaps not to the liking of former US
corporation Haliburton.

Turkey will not allow the Kurds an independent country so they will
have to negotiate. Saudi Arabia will not allow the Sunnis to be denied
oil wealth so the Shias and Kurds will have to negotiate. Iran will
back the Shia, so the Kurds and Sunnis will have to negotiate.


Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch
of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in
violence because of the bad old United States.

Yeah, right. Nobody "has to" negotiate with anyone. If Turkey won't
allow the Kurds to set up an independent country, and the Kurds want
that bad enough, they don't have to negotiate; they can fight. Even if
Saudi Arabia doesn't like what the Shiites are doing, Saudi Arabia
lacks the military might to do anything about it. So the Sunnis and
the Shiites can continue to fight. And they'll both fight the Kurds
and the Turks. And that's not even considering the fighting within
those groups.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Ads
  #862  
Old April 11th 07, 07:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Bill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,680
Default Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"

Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
In article ,
dgk wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up
full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on
top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation
indefinitely.

I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government
is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq.
That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about.

But, assuming we do withdraw the military, things will likely come
together in Iraq, although perhaps not to the liking of former US
corporation Haliburton.

Turkey will not allow the Kurds an independent country so they will
have to negotiate. Saudi Arabia will not allow the Sunnis to be denied
oil wealth so the Shias and Kurds will have to negotiate. Iran will
back the Shia, so the Kurds and Sunnis will have to negotiate.


Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch
of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in
violence because of the bad old United States.

Yeah, right. Nobody "has to" negotiate with anyone. If Turkey won't
allow the Kurds to set up an independent country, and the Kurds want
that bad enough, they don't have to negotiate; they can fight. Even if
Saudi Arabia doesn't like what the Shiites are doing, Saudi Arabia
lacks the military might to do anything about it. So the Sunnis and
the Shiites can continue to fight. And they'll both fight the Kurds
and the Turks. And that's not even considering the fighting within
those groups.


There's always gas to eliminate the problem and leave the buildings
standing. I would vote for about 10 Megatons each over Baghdad and
Tehran but that might be politically incorrect to the Russians who would
get a bit of fallout.
We have now been there longer than WWII and accomplished much less,
unless bankrupting the country counts for something.
Bill Baka
  #863  
Old April 12th 07, 01:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
dgk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 827
Default Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:17:17 -0700, Bill wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

In article ,
Clark F Morris wrote:
The US took on a responsibility to those who cooperated with it after
the invasion. How it treats those people may determine how US troops
are treated in the future. Many people are risking their lives daily
to make Iraq work. I for one don't want to see them left to the
tender mercies of the various groups directing the suicide bombers.
Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up
full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on
top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation
indefinitely.


I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government
is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq.
That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about.


We do have about 21 more months of 'you know who' and his 'hunting'
buddy, so that is how long we will have too many troops there and not at
home.


I don't know if that's the case. The Democrats are really controlled
by the same corporate interests as the Republicans. Well, most of the
Democrats, certainly Hillary. I think the original plan, as advanced
by the Project for a New American Century, was to install a government
friendly to "American" interests. Now, my interests are not the same
as those of GE, ADM, Halliburton, etc. But, let's face it, until
things change dramatically our way of life requires big oil.

But Chalabi, who was supposed to be the front of the friendly
government, proved to have other interests, apparently those of Iran.

The most astonishing thing to me was that, even before this all broke,
our big ally in Iraq was the Committee for the Islamic Revolution in
Iraq. I mean really, we overthrew a guy who was a secular bulwark
against Islamic extremism and replaced him with, what?
  #864  
Old April 12th 07, 01:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
dgk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 827
Default Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:14:56 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

In article ,
dgk wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500,

(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up
full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on
top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation
indefinitely.


I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government
is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq.
That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about.

But, assuming we do withdraw the military, things will likely come
together in Iraq, although perhaps not to the liking of former US
corporation Haliburton.

Turkey will not allow the Kurds an independent country so they will
have to negotiate. Saudi Arabia will not allow the Sunnis to be denied
oil wealth so the Shias and Kurds will have to negotiate. Iran will
back the Shia, so the Kurds and Sunnis will have to negotiate.


Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch
of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in
violence because of the bad old United States.


Most folks around the world want only two things, a place to live and
a job. Islam, for the most part, is a peaceful religion. Extremists
exist in all types of religions and exploit them for their own
agendas. Remove the US occupation and the extremists will be on the
outs.

Look at Iran. Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs were clinging to
power and there were large pro-western demonstrations. As soon as we
invaded, the mullahs were firmly back in power.

Matthew, seriously, what do you thing the invasion of Iraq was all
about? The fact that I even have to ask that question says a lot.
  #865  
Old April 12th 07, 04:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Matthew T. Russotto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Iraq responsibility was promoting "smart growth"

In article ,
dgk wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:14:56 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:


Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch
of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in
violence because of the bad old United States.


Most folks around the world want only two things, a place to live and
a job. Islam, for the most part, is a peaceful religion. Extremists
exist in all types of religions and exploit them for their own
agendas. Remove the US occupation and the extremists will be on the
outs.


Fantasy. Utter fantasy. Remove the US occupation and you still have left
every grudge, every grievance, every complaint that one Iraqi group
has against another, not to mention the complaints they have with
Iraq's neighbors (and Iraq's neighbors likely ambitions in Iraq). The
idea that Iraq is filled with reasonable people turned to radicalism
by the US occupation is simply a fairy tale.

Look at Iran. Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs were clinging to
power and there were large pro-western demonstrations. As soon as we
invaded, the mullahs were firmly back in power.


Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs in Iran had been in power for many
years, and they still remain so. They were never in any danger of
being ousted.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
  #866  
Old April 12th 07, 08:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default Shoud there be a "freedom to pollute"?

On Apr 9, 8:35 pm, "Fred G. Mackey" wrote:
Dave Head wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 07:09:23 GMT, Bill wrote:


So why are these people driving these lame ass SUV's?


Again.


People drive lame-ass SUV's because they occasionally need one and only have
money enough for 1 vehicle. They occasionally need one because:


That's the reason some people drive them. Others drive them for no good
reason other than we have a thing called freedom in the US.


I'd call it "freedom to pollute"... But should there be such a
freedom, or freedom should be better understood to mean...

Herbert J. Muller. (1964). Freedom in the Western World:
From the Dark Ages to the Rise of Democracy

"I am adhering to the broad but relatively neutral definition of
freedom as 'the condition of being able to choose and carry out
purposes.' This includes the most common meaning of the absence of
external constraints, or freedom from coercion; the idea of actual
ability with available means, or effective freedom to do what one
wishes; and the assumption of a power of deliberate choice between
known alternatives, involving freedom of mind and spirit, which is
hardest to specify but still distinguishes human freedom from the
ability of other animals to carry out their instinctive purposes. In
the words of Christian Bay, 'A person is free to the extent that he
has the capacity, the opportunity, and the incentive to give
expression to what is in him and to develop his potentialities.'

"So defined, I repeat, freedom means concretely freedoms of various
kinds, which may be at least roughly specified. Among the most
fundamental is political freedom, involving some means of control of
rulers by the ruled, some protection of the individual against
government by legal rights or civil liberties."

But for most of history...

The ruling powers tended to adopt one or a combination of these:

plutocracy - rule through wealth
militarism - rule through military power
sacerdotalism - rule through religious dogma and practice
oligarchy - rule through a small cabal

"In general, the common people enjoyed little if any freedom, serving
at the behest of their rulers. The rulers kept their subjects under
control through conditioning them with religions which sanctioned the
ruler's power. Common people were forced to work at mind- and body-
destroying jobs which gave them no time or energy for reflective
thought or unified reform activities."

So the "freedom" to drive an SUV (Supersized Unnecessary Vehicle) has
more to do with the freedom MONEY buys you (PLUTOCRACY) and little to
do with human freedom (DEMOCRACY), in which we still may not do much
better than the cavemen, with due respect to those who didn't use the
stick as a way of life.

"The outstanding ingredient which the Greeks contributed to the
evolution of human freedom was the concept of democracy: the rule of
citizens. The idea now became a part of human thought: that common
people could and should govern themselves, without having to bow to a
military, political, economic, or religious ruler. This concept was to
play an important role throughout modern history, as people returned
to the idea that they could rule themselves. As we shall see, this
ideal of citizen self-rule is still unrealized, even in twenty-first-
century America. However, the ideal continues to have a powerful
influence over human thought and serves as a goal toward which we can
aspire."

http://www.hermes-press.com/history1.htm

So, I guess, FREEDOM COMES IN A BICYCLE, at least democracy does...

  #867  
Old April 12th 07, 09:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default Occidental CEO got more than $400 million in 2006

On Apr 9, 9:40 pm, "di" wrote:
"donquijote1954" wrote in message

oups.com...



Lions and monkeys don't want the same. Lions dream of big and pompous.
Monkeys are more into practical, fun things like bikes, motorcycles
and EVs. And they are beautiful, just not pompous.


The only areawhere you are #1 is in ribbons...


http://blogorelli.typepad.com/photos...ed/ribbons.gif


This doesn't make any sense at all to me, I guess you need to explain it.
But then again, not much you ever say makes much sense.


So many bumper stickers and ribbons on SUVs... I guess they want to
show their support for the troops but keep burning gas like supporting
terrorism. Or perhaps they just want to hide the latter fact. Anyway,
this their latest bumper sticker...

http://www.toppun.com/ProductImages/...rive_small.gif

  #868  
Old April 12th 07, 09:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
nash
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,061
Default Shoud there be a "freedom to pollute"?

"So defined, I repeat, freedom means concretely freedoms of various
kinds, which may be at least roughly specified. Among the most
fundamental is political freedom, involving some means of control of
rulers by the ruled, some protection of the individual against
government by legal rights or civil liberties."

,

and we all know how well that worked out. Sorry could not resist


  #869  
Old April 12th 07, 09:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
nash
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,061
Default Shoud there be a "freedom to pollute"?

You mean freedom to kill ourselves on a bicycle is at least democracy.

Drivers have a superiority complex. They will never be motivated to govern
themselves for the good of the people. Sad note eh! : (


  #870  
Old April 13th 07, 04:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Baxter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 310
Default promoting "smart growth"

-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"Baxter" wrote in message
...
-
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"Baxter" wrote in message
...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in

message
...

"Baxter" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in

message
.. .

"Baxter" wrote in message
...

Do stay on track - the issue is whether we spend hundreds of
billions
of
dollars on Iraqi's or whether we spend a tenth of that on our

own
people.

(and yes, there are reports that elections are not particularly

fair
in
LA.)

Then why did you bring up your feeling that the people of

Louisiana
are
somehow downtrodden in a way that Mississippians aren't?

Your question is nonsensical.

Obviously you don't have an answer then.

No, your question is nonsensical in this context. Your question

might
be
more appropriate in context with the US Attorneys firings that are in

the
news.

I see you've learned one of George Conklin's less admirable

techniques...If
someone disagrees with you or questions you further, declare the
comment/question irrelevant, drivel, or nonsensical. Nice :-)

Then suppose you detail that relevance for us?


That's what I was asking you to do.

Let's see - you want *me* to explain the relelavance of *your* response?!
That's the sort of thing Conklin does.



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ride Report ( Long) - Children's Cancer Institute Bike Ride - Townsville to Cairns HughMann Australia 2 August 7th 05 04:08 AM
Early-bird bike ride helps Sierra Club ("Morning Glory" ride) Garrison Hilliard General 5 July 8th 05 05:44 PM
Bike Ride Pictures: Club ride to Half Moon Bay, CA, June 2005 Bill Bushnell Rides 0 June 28th 05 07:05 AM
Bike Ride Pictures: Sequoia Century Worker's Ride (200k, w/variations), June 2005 Bill Bushnell Rides 0 June 19th 05 03:31 PM
[Texas] Bridgewood Farms "Ride From the Heart" Charity Bike Ride Greg Bretting Rides 0 January 15th 04 06:38 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.