About headlights shining upward

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 22:40:53 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote:

My fiddle bow needed work, so this evening I set out in the dark to deliver it to my favorite repairman.
(BTW, he's also a utility cyclist.)
This was a cross-suburbs trip to an address I rarely visit. It was a very
pleasant night ride on a beautiful night.
Because of the recent discussions (and the less familiar route) I paid
attention to my IQ Cyo's upward illumination.
Here's what I found:

http://www.maquetland.com/v2/images_...5062082oc1.jpg

The Cyo's upward light is, indeed, not enough for me to clearly read small street signs. However, it was enough
for me to tell that one street was _not_ the correct one. I couldn't make
out the letters well enough to read the
name, but I made out enough letters to know I had to keep going to the next
block. I suppose if a person were
frequently looking for unfamiliar back streets at night, it might be
worthwhile to carry a small flashlight.

But regarding the bugaboo of overhead tree branches dashing night cyclists to the ground: Of course, there were
no such tree branches. However, when riding the one very useful shortcut
bike-ped path into the center of our
village, I could see the tree branches that were overhead and off to the
side quite clearly, well before I got to
them. If any _had_ been in a position to hit my head, they certainly would
have been obvious. The claim that
"You gotta use a Chinese flashlight to prevent head injury" really is nonsense.

About real life issues: The beam of this Cyo (several years old) is still beautiful, clearly showing me bumps
and potholes, plus illuminating stop signs from a great distance.

Sounds like progress. The really old ones somehow failed to illuminate stop
signs and borders:
http://www.asphm.com/vehicules/velo_...express_04.jpg

Again, those who haven't ridden with a good German-standard headlight beam really don't know what they're missing.

Those who have know they're missing a built-in option of using a full beam
like they do when using motor vehicles.

Yes, they're a bit pricey. But if they were as popular as they deserve to be, the price would come way down.

With the Y2014 optic which finally looks like an improvement, I'd expect
lower bids for used, original Cyo & Edelux lamps this winter.
http://fahrradbeleuchtung-info.de/images/71.jpg

Aw Frank, you've just never tried a proper flashlight. See

http://www.asphm.com/vehicules/velo_...fahrrad_01.jpg

On Friday, September 27, 2013 1:10:56 PM UTC-4, russell wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2013 11:55:36 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:

On 9/26/2013 8:29 PM, russell wrote: 55 dollars is not too expensive. http://www.starbike.com/en/busch-and...umotec-iq-cyo/ The problem with those lights is that they're not really suitable for use in the U.S.. They don't provide sufficient illumination for higher speed riding, they don't have a proper beam shape that illuminates off to the sides and slightly up, and they don't have a flash mode for daytime use.





Way back in 2006 I rode a 200, 300, 400, 600, 1200 kilometer brevets in the midwest USA. Mostly country road riding but some city riding too. In 2007 I rode two 200, two 300, two 400, two 600, 1000, and 1200 kilometer brevets in the midwest USA and France. Mostly country road riding but some city riding too. The 1200 France ride started and finished in the suburbs of Paris and turned around in Brest.



I used two halogen Schmidt lights during all these rides. I have since gone to two Bushc&Mueller LED IQ Cyo lights. Have ridden at night with the Cyo lights. Both of these combinaions of lights provide sufficient light in all directions to read signs and see the road far in front of me. There were some short cobblestone sections on the France ride. I can safely ride 15-25 mph in the dark in the country or city.

According to Mr. Scharf, you don't exist. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, September 27, 2013 9:27:51 PM UTC-4, Phil W Lee wrote:

The B&M IXON Pure B LED front light is 24.90 euros, so we're getting
there.

Even the IXON IQ can be had for 44.90 EUR, and that is a very good
light indeed - optically it's a Cyo, but with a battery power source.

Certainly if sales were to ramp up to decent levels (which would also
stimulate competition) a decent battery powered bicycle headlight
could be well within the $25 range.

I wonder how much patent protection the B&M optics have?

I say that because I think the main reason so many bike lights have radially symmetrical beams is that such a beam takes no design work. It's what bulbs or LEDs do naturally, with simple, easy-to-buy optics. So any hack operating out of a garage in China can glue a few components together and sell a headlight to those who know only that "lumens" has something to do with "bright."

But what would happen if, say, one of those hacks used some easy tricks to copy the B&M reflector? The copy wouldn't have to be very precise to be a great improvement over a Scharfian beam. Is there any legal reason this couldn't be done? Would there be any practical way of preventing it from being done?

I know that Schmidt uses B&M optics, and I assume they pay a licensing fee for that privilege. But what prevents others from using copies? Just asking.

- Frank Krygowski

On 28/09/13 02:41, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2013 12:16:06 AM UTC-4, Andy K wrote:

My headlight system consists of a Zefal light and two 9 led
flashlights attached by 2 hose clamps.

I set the Zefal to blink and the other 2 to shine continuously.

Total cost of system is less than $25 dollars.

I tried similar solutions long ago, and have some friends who still
use them. In my (or our) experience, they can be fine as "be seen"
lights in cities. And in many city centers, street lighting is good
enough that there's little worry about road hazards in the dark.

I thought I had be seen lights until I realized I wasn't being seen as
often as I should have been. I am now though.

The curious thing is I could be seen with my be seen lights by anyone
actually observing, but not well enough by some portion of motorists who
were obviously not being observant.

A good bright headlight makes a big difference.

--
JS

James wrote:
On 28/09/13 02:41, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2013 12:16:06 AM UTC-4, Andy K wrote:

My headlight system consists of a Zefal light and two 9 led
flashlights attached by 2 hose clamps.

I set the Zefal to blink and the other 2 to shine continuously.

Total cost of system is less than $25 dollars.

I tried similar solutions long ago, and have some friends who still
use them. In my (or our) experience, they can be fine as "be seen"
lights in cities. And in many city centers, street lighting is good
enough that there's little worry about road hazards in the dark.

I thought I had be seen lights until I realized I wasn't being seen as
often as I should have been. I am now though.

The curious thing is I could be seen with my be seen lights by anyone
actually observing, but not well enough by some portion of motorists who
were obviously not being observant.

A good bright headlight makes a big difference.

Wife and I driving home last night encountered this extremely bright light
approaching. Couldn't tell it was a bicycle util he was beside us. I won't
say it blinded me but played he'll with my night vision.

--
duane

On 09/27/2013 12:55 PM, sms wrote:
On 9/26/2013 8:29 PM, wrote:

55 dollars is not too expensive.
http://www.starbike.com/en/busch-and...umotec-iq-cyo/

The problem with those lights is that they're not really suitable for
use in the U.S..

Balls.

They don't provide sufficient illumination for higher
speed riding,

Possibly, if you're a pro racer.

they don't have a proper beam shape that illuminates off
to the sides and slightly up,

More light to the sides would be a little reassuring, but other than
that the beam is damn near ideal.

and they don't have a flash mode for
daytime use.

I don't want or need a flash mode.

Once you've experienced riding with a light that provides a level of
illumination that's at least within an order of magnitude of a vehicle
headlight, that illuminates properly to the sides and a bit up (to read
street signs and to illuminate low hanging hazards), and that provides a
daytime flash mode, you'll not want to go back.

I would actually agree other than the "a bit up" and "a flash mode"
which is completely undesirable. But if you have the light output of a
vehicle headlight, you need a properly shaped beam pattern of a vehicle
headlight... I *could* expound yet again on the other reasons the beam
pattern you espouse (just not in this post) is completely incorrect; but
as I recall I and others have already done so, and you've dismissed
anything we've posted apparently out of hand.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 09/27/2013 01:10 PM, wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2013 11:55:36 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 9/26/2013 8:29 PM, wrote: 55 dollars
is not too expensive.
http://www.starbike.com/en/busch-and...umotec-iq-cyo/ The
problem with those lights is that they're not really suitable for
use in the U.S.. They don't provide sufficient illumination for
higher speed riding, they don't have a proper beam shape that
illuminates off to the sides and slightly up, and they don't have a
flash mode for daytime use.


Way back in 2006 I rode a 200, 300, 400, 600, 1200 kilometer brevets
in the midwest USA. Mostly country road riding but some city riding
too. In 2007 I rode two 200, two 300, two 400, two 600, 1000, and
1200 kilometer brevets in the midwest USA and France. Mostly country
road riding but some city riding too. The 1200 France ride started
and finished in the suburbs of Paris and turned around in Brest.

I used two halogen Schmidt lights during all these rides. I have
since gone to two Bushc&Mueller LED IQ Cyo lights. Have ridden at
night with the Cyo lights. Both of these combinaions of lights
provide sufficient light in all directions to read signs and see the
road far in front of me. There were some short cobblestone sections
on the France ride. I can safely ride 15-25 mph in the dark in the
country or city.


How are you aiming the Cyos? Crossed or splayed like off road vehicle
lights? That's what I would be tempted to do, to widen the beam pattern
a little - really my main complaint with the Cyo.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 7:29:37 AM UTC-5, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 09/27/2013 01:10 PM, wrote: On Friday, September 27, 2013 11:55:36 AM UTC-5, sms wrote: On 9/26/2013 8:29 PM, wrote: 55 dollars is not too expensive. http://www.starbike.com/en/busch-and...umotec-iq-cyo/ The problem with those lights is that they're not really suitable for use in the U.S.. They don't provide sufficient illumination for higher speed riding, they don't have a proper beam shape that illuminates off to the sides and slightly up, and they don't have a flash mode for daytime use. Way back in 2006 I rode a 200, 300, 400, 600, 1200 kilometer brevets in the midwest USA. Mostly country road riding but some city riding too. In 2007 I rode two 200, two 300, two 400, two 600, 1000, and 1200 kilometer brevets in the midwest USA and France. Mostly country road riding but some city riding too. The 1200 France ride started and finished in the suburbs of Paris and turned around in Brest. I used two halogen Schmidt lights during all these rides. I have since gone to two Bushc&Mueller LED IQ Cyo lights. Have ridden at night with the Cyo lights. Both of these combinaions of lights provide sufficient light in all directions to read signs and see the road far in front of me. There were some short cobblestone sections on the France ride. I can safely ride 15-25 mph in the dark in the country or city.


How are you aiming the Cyos? Crossed or splayed like off road vehicle lights? That's what I would be tempted to do, to widen the beam pattern a little - really my main complaint with the Cyo. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Not sure how I am aiming the Cyo lights. Located down by the front hub, about 4 inches either side of front hub. I think pointing forward, straight. No planned crossing or splay angle. I assume they do have some overlap in the middle of the road where both lights are shining on the same piece of ground. The lights are angled upward a bit different. One to provide more close lumination in front of the wheel and one angled to shine further down the road.

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 5:29:00 PM UTC-4, Phil W Lee wrote:

Philips seem to have managed to create a similar pattern without
apparently infringing any B&M patents, so it's certainly possible.
Now that there are several such lights on the market, a copy that
mixed those designs would be difficult to enforce any patent against,
as it would be unclear which, if any, patent had been infringed.
The software that could generate a design for such a reflector (and
output direct to a machine for making moulds) is now possible to run
on any old PC, so it seems that it's only market pressure for more
lumens at any cost that is preventing it (particularly in China, which
doesn't have a good reputation for complying with international patent
agreements).

I recall reading discussions on other forums where participants were trying to find ways to produce a good road beam (as opposed to a Scharf-style beam) for their homebrew headlights.

Seems to me that these days, a person willing to disassemble a B&M light might make a "negative" casting (i.e. a pattern) of the reflector, perhaps using plaster of Paris; then use that to construct copies. One method could be to lay reflective foil over the pattern, then coat it with epoxy. I think the resulting reflector would be crude and imperfect, but still much better than a Chinese flashlight beam. And this method would allow pretty easy trial and error for those wanting (say) more side spill.

(BTW, I once had easy access to a vapor deposition machine, one that could put a nice, shiny coating of aluminum on items placed into it. Sadly, the company that owned it is no more.)

As you say, there are other headlights on the market with good LED beams. Occasionally, one pops onto the market that's quite inexpensive - perhaps through closeouts, etc. Perhaps it would be worth risking one of those, if a person wanted to experiment.

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 8:29:37 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

How are you aiming the [two] Cyos? Crossed or splayed like off road vehicle
lights? That's what I would be tempted to do, to widen the beam pattern
a little - really my main complaint with the Cyo.

The current issue of Bicycle Quarterly (Vol. 12, No. 1, Autumn 2013) has something pertinent - a brief review of the new Schmidt Edelux II headlight. It contains color-coded graphics, plus a verbal description, indicating that the new optics (plus an even brighter LED) give much more side spill. As Jan Heine notes, "... the Edelux enables us to descend mountain passes at night without slowing down. The beam is cut off at the top, so it does not waste precious light energy."

According to the graphics, the beam is now twice as wide as the previous Edelux, which uses Cyo optics. Of course, we're talking serious money for one of those lights - but now that the capability has been demonstrated, this should eventually filter down to less expensive lights.

- Frank Krygowski