Novice Looking for Tactical Advice

Here's the problem - Frank and his teammate simply weren't experienced
enough to have the confidence to stage attack and counter. What's
more, one attacks, the other then sits on the wheel of the experienced
guy and then when the attacker is caught and the teammate now counter
attacks IMMEDIATELY which is the only way this strategy works, the now
tired teammate is dropped.

yup, been there. remember also the L-B-L where Bartoli was able to
beat Jaja and Zulle (ONCE), who kept trying to work him over. See
http://www.iht.com/articles/1997/04/21/bike.t_2.php

awesome performance.

if you're 5km into a 100km race ... attacking and going solo isn't the
right move. in the last 5km, yeah, if you've got the strength to pull
it off.

you can always tell the guy to 'pull or get dropped'. sometimes that
even works :-)

B.

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:09:40 -0400, RonSonic
wrote:

The other thing is that you're a fresh minted
newb and you got to stand on a box
after a race, which ain't bad.

Yeah.
--
JT
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in message . com, Frank
Taco ') wrote:

So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).

Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.

That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right?

This is the time for the old one, two.

Yes, that's exactly the right tactics. One of you blast up the road, the
other one sit on his wheel and do /nothing/ to help him. But keep good and
close. As soon as you catch the one who went off up the road, swap - the
one who was previously sitting on his wheel fire off up the road like
crazy, the other one sit in on his wheel and just stay there and rest.

The objective is that the one who's sitting on his wheel gets a little
rest, while Mr Experienced wears himself out chasing down the escaper; so
that when Mr Experienced catches the escaper the sitter-in has done enough
recovery for another burst of speed.

It has the additional benefit that it keeps the speed of the break-away
high, so you're that much more difficult for the peloton to catch.

If it's any comfort to you I also took up racing in my (late) forties. You
probably won't win anything (well, I won't...) but you'll have fun.


--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and we had run out of gas for the welding torch.

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:55:17 +0100, Simon Brooke
wrote:

If it's any comfort to you I also took up racing in my (late) forties. You
probably won't win anything (well, I won't...) but you'll have fun.

If this guy got top 3 in one of his first events he probably will win
something.

--
JT
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On Jun 6, 10:42 am, wrote:
Here's the problem - Frank and his teammate simply weren't experienced
enough to have the confidence to stage attack and counter.

It seems from reading the first post that the "take turns gapping a
lone enemy" tactic was news to the new-guy teammates.

Well, none of us is born knowing this stuff, so there you go. "That's
why they call it experience".

What's
more, one attacks, the other then sits on the wheel of the experienced
guy and then when the attacker is caught and the teammate now counter
attacks IMMEDIATELY which is the only way this strategy works, the now
tired teammate is dropped.

The attacker has the responsibility to mind his resources carefully,
so he can take the next turn. The object isn't to blast off into the
distance-- you just want a gap, in order to force a chase.

In any case the two guys that are simply hanging on cannot beat a
stronger rider. That's the real truth behind racing.

I could read the OP's account differently: The enemy was of equal or
lesser strength, but knew he had a sprint the two new guys almost
certainly wouldn't be prepared for. So, he waited and sprinted.

Or, maybe he was just saving gas for the Open race, later on in the
race program.

Tom, I have hung on and won (let alone placing). "Never tow a sprinter
to the line". Another racing maxim that people (fortunately for us
stayer-sprinters) forget from time to time.

AFAIC, the beauty of bike racing is that tactics can beat strength
(and, of course, "other tactics"). --D-y

On Jun 5, 11:47 pm, Frank Taco wrote:
To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

See also: Bajadali, Andrew.
USPRO Championships, 2006.

-B

On Jun 6, 12:47 am, Frank Taco wrote:
To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

He sounds like a class act, someone who enjoys a game well played as
much as winning.

As has been noted, his suggestion was the "textbook" example of how
that situation might be played. But since he was there, I would guess
it is also the most accurate suggestion you will hear. In what he
described, the goal would be to use your 2-1 advantage and make
repeated attacks, forcing him to work to match every attack, i.e. work
him over - one of you attacking and the other simply sitting on his
wheel (alternating attacks would be the textbook version but the real
world version could be different ). But if the attacks are weak or
easily followed he might not become tired from responding. A HUGE
factor is, of course, the relative strengths of the riders. In
discussing *tactics* it should probably be assumed that the riders are
relatively evenly matched, although that is never completely the case.
And the relative sprinting ability of the riders is an even bigger
factor when it comes to a breakaway group reaching the finish line
together .

If (as you describe) the conditions make it difficult to ride alone,
then it is also possible that little would be gained by one of the two
of you going off the front. the loner might let the one go (and use up
energy), save his energy and eventually attack to drop #2 and then
reel in #1.

In any case, you describe that you "tried a break" although I
suspect that you are describing that you both tried to get away
simultaneously. That could work well if he were weaker than the two of
you but not nearly so well if he were equal, and almost not at all if
he were stronger. The obvious general goal would be for the two of you
to get a gap on the loner and use the speed advantage of two riders
working together versus a lone rider. But typically, that would NOT be
a good way to drop him in the first place unless you could truly just
"ride him off your wheel ". (If that were the case tactics would be
largely irrelevant.)
An appropriate tactic would be the textbook version described above or
having one of you simply get off the front. If and when a significant
gap is opened and maintained then rider #2 could attack the loner with
the hope of joining #1. Then #1 and #2 could work together. But #2
should be mindful of not pulling the loner up to #1.

Obviously any such situation is going to depend on a multitude of
factors, which is part of what makes it so interesting. It requires
adapting to the specifics of the situtation, to the extent they are
known and/or unknown.

DR

On Jun 5, 11:47 pm, Frank Taco wrote:
So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).

Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.

That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Hey, I really want to thank you guys for all the great replies.
You've given me lots to think about and more importantly, have steered
me towards the right way to think about it.

DirtRoadie: Awesome post . . thanks for taking the time, you nailed
it. A couple of my other favorite comments:

...the beauty of bike racing is that tactics can beat strength...

Yeah, us old guys tend to notice that right away! Seems like there's
a LOT to learn from just taking a look at what happened at the last
race and how to do it better next time. Looks like there's not a lot
of people interested in doing that, so there's your advantage.

...If it's any comfort to you I also took up racing in my (late)
forties. You probably won't win anything (well, I won't...) but you'll
have fun.

Well, I'm having a blast. Why this is I'm not sure, because it hurts
like am SOB. And I honestly don't expect to win anything, but the
idea that it *could* happen is intoxicating. If it ever does, you
guys will want to be in the vicinity because I'll be buying the beer.

Thanks again. FT