Cheap titanium frames

Michael Green wrote:
I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various
places. Anybody know anything about them?

If you mean the Raleigh "Timet" road frame, yes, I've got one and am
pleased with it. Until I found this frame, I never dreamt I could ever
have owned a bike as good as the one I built with this.

Where are they from?

Designed and welded (a few years ago) by Raleigh Special Products in
Nottingham, England using tubing from Timet in Germany, drawn and butted
by Reynolds.

Are they any good?

Certainly good for the money*, in my opinion. The tubing is Enhanced
Commercially Pure Grade 2 Titanium** - which is relatively soft compared
to the alloys (with more aluminium content) the likes of Airbourne and
Litespeed use. BUT, to make up for this, the tubes are oversized - in
particular, the teardrop-shaped downtube is 64mm! The end result is a
frame that's almost as good in practice as the best but just weighs a
little bit more and has a three figure price tag instead of four. Metal
fatigue is a non-issue in this case (according to a bloke from Timet who
doesn't have any direct interest in this frame)**.

My 60cm weighs 1646g (with braze-ons & bb cable guide) excluding forks
(frame does not come with matching forks). The bare frame felt incredibly
light to me considering its size. Bear in mind that you might need a
longer (therefore heavier) seatpost, stem and fork steerer with compact Al
frames that happen to be lighter.

Lateral stiffness test:
http://technology.open.ac.uk/materia...bikeframe.html
- Basically, the Timet beats the crap out of everything else tested! :-)
- To be fair, I'm not sure if the test used the best method. Flex at
the BB is quite noticeable to me when sprinting - but I suppose it is
anyway with many/most lightweight frames, and I'm not sure how much is
down to my triple Veloce crankset. Still accelerates and climbs wickedly.

should cheap and titanium be seen together? I don't know.

It's a reasonable combination in this case because it's a discontinued
model and not the fanciest grade of Ti and doesn't have a flash finish or
a fashionable brand name. I think it's at least as good value as similar
priced aluminium frames, maybe much better (?). Extra plus points are
that it should last a lifetime and doesn't require any maintenance (has
and needs no paint). Some users also claim it gives a very comfortable
ride. I find my bike more comfortable than my previous steel Dawes Giro
500 but I'm not sure how much of that is due to the frame material.

My only slight concern is the finish which seems to be some kind of
oxidised job. I've read vague theories about this sort of thing leading
to frame cracking. But I'm not at all sure about this and just mention it
for the sake of honesty.

* when bought at the current "sale" or second-hand prices.

** "The fact that your frame is not 6-4 or 3-2.5 should not
concern you; the marketing in the magazines about the benefits of those
two alloys is mainly fluffery. The modulus of elasticity is essentially
the same among all the alloys, and the fatigue loading for a road bike
should be of no concern unless you are expecting the frame to last more
than many million miles."
"...'Enhanced strength' Commercially Pure tube....Basically this was
unannealed to get the Gr2 chemistry material to strengths up to Gr4
'equivalent'"

~PB

Michael,
I am no expert when it comes to titanium and bike frames. However, what I
can tell you is that titanium is a real bitch to work with - I used to work
with it on gas platforms in the Gulf. It is very difficult to weld cleanly
because of its melting point and the metal working tools and machinery used
to work it are expensive since they must be very tough to stop the titanium
wearing them out. The welding rod is also very expensive. I think certain
alloys of titanium (such as vanadium) have been designed to counter this but
they have one thing in common - they are expensive.
Titanium is also used in some very glamorous environments like airplane
frames, the space shuttle and parts of Formula 1 chassis where it's great
strength and lightness are so useful. I am therefore quite surprised that
you can get bicycle frames made of this metal cheap like you mention.
Surely the quality must be a bit ropey?

Slimbo


"Michael Green" wrote in message
om...
I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various
places. Anybody know anything about them? Where are they from? Are
they any good? Anyone else seen them, or did I imagine them? Hmm,
should cheap and titanium be seen together? I don't know.

On 29 Aug 2003 14:26:44 -0700, (Michael
Green) wrote:

I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various
places.

How cheap is cheap ?

Anybody know anything about them? Where are they from?

The alloy usually gives it away. Anything with zirconium is Russian,
3/2.5 (the best alloy for bike frames) is probably Chinese, CP is
Swedish and 6/4 is dumb Yanks who don't realise that "less is more"
(watch for your back wheel falling out of the dropout !)

Ti isn't too expensive to buy, to make tubes from, or to weld a basic
frame. Machining is expensive though, as is forming complex non-round
tubes. So a "cheap" Ti frame is often quite workable, but has ugly
detailing. The bottle cage & cable mounts are ally rivet-ons, the
seatpost clamp is separate, and there's no mud clearance around the
lower stays into the BB.

should cheap and titanium be seen together?

Yes. Bulk Ti is a fraction of the price it was a decade ago
I make furniture out of it:
http://codesmiths.com/shed/mirrors/#titanium

As for bikes, I've been riding a Habanero hardtail MTB (Chinese
welded, sold by a guy in Florida who's a regular in rec.bikes) since
'97 and I love it.

PS - If you do get it, then be scrupulous about copper-based
anti-seize compound or generous threadlock on all mechanical
conenctions, and don't even think about using a Ti bolt threaded into
it. Small Ti-Ti threads are an abomination for galling.

Andy Dingley wrote:

I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various
places.

How cheap is cheap ?

Latest "sale" prices were £250 to £300. One dealer claimed the original
price was £600 (although I don't know how far that dates back to).

Anybody know anything about them? Where are they from?

The alloy usually gives it away. Anything with zirconium is Russian,
3/2.5 (the best alloy for bike frames) is probably Chinese, CP is
Swedish

Or German. (See my previous reply).

~PB

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:42:14 +0100, "Pete Biggs"
wrote:

CP is Swedish

Or German. (See my previous reply).

Bet you it's Sandvik who made the tubes though 8-)