ARRRRRGH

R15757 snipe further from cover of anonymity:

I can let the glue dry over night and it is still a tacky sheen in
the morning.

Oh man, this is getting comical. In a previous post some months
ago--when we happened to be discussing this exact issue although you
seem to have forgotten--I mentioned that the glue should dry until
your so-called tacky sheen is all gone.

I guess you have a different definition of tackiness. A clean glossy
surface of dried patch glue remains tacky until it oxidizes and
becomes useless as an adhesive surface for a tire patch. If that
were not so, patches would not adhere at all. Or, conversely, there
would be no need for patch glue.

"Tackiness" I equated with stickiness. I said the glue should dry
until all hints of stickiness have left it, which is easily tested
by pressing a finger or fingernail onto the glued area and pulling
it off.

I think you are redefining tackiness. Smooth surfaces, such as glass,
or a clean fingernail, stick to completely dry Seran Wrap (PVDC) that
has for its useful life a tacky surface. This is the goal of applying
patch glue to a sand papered inner tube. The red gummy surface of the
Rema patch is designed to bond to that surface and combine with it to
a point that it cannot be practically removed... except by heating.
That is a chemical process that takes time.

And you made your ignorance unambiguous when you replied, and please
permit me a paraphrase as I do not wish to look up the exact quote,
that if the glue had dried that much then a patch would not stick to
it "any more than it would stick to a dry window pane."

Can you say this without impugning my intelligence or are you trying
to be rude? As I said, if it did not display tackiness, a
characteristic of smoothness, it would not work as a primer on surfaces
to attract a patch. It all depends on what you visualize under your
definition of "dry enough" and what works.

It was then that it hit me: Jobst Brandt has never actually patched
a tube correctly, so he doesn't know what it's like. Fascinating!

What do you believe is incorrect about tubes that I have patched,
considering that you have never seen patches that I have applied to
tubes. What makes you so adamant in denouncing my ability and
understanding of applying patches? I get the impression that I
somehow caused you injury or embarrassment and that you are trying to
get even.

As I said, have you tried pulling a patch off immediately after
application?

Yes a few times when I was attempting to patch two nearby punctures
with a single patch, and missed. Then I tried to pull the patch off
and reposition...

If so, you will notice that the patch can be pulled off easily even
by pulling the cellophane from one corner.

Eh?? Now you're freakin me out. No--the correctly installed patch
is extremely difficult to remove from the first second after
installation. If you proceed as directed, the patch locks on to the
tube immediately and it ain't comin' off. You better get it right
the first time. If you ever get around to trying it, you'll have
one of those eureka! moments.

I see you avoid explaining why Rema patches are made so that the
cellophane can be peeled from inside to outside after applying the
patch, something that Rema designed so the patch will not peel off
while pulling off the cellophane.

If you don't believe that, how about sticking a patch on half way
while holding onto the raised portion and note how easily it pulls off
without separating the red part from the black, something that is not
the case with a cured patch.

Maybe you can explain in non-Rube Goldberg terms how dry the glue
must be ...

The glue must be dry enough that it loses any hint of stickiness,
easily determined by touch. Dry. Rema directs a five-minute wait,
I have found that 3 minutes is usually enough.

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum? We are not
out on the road to sit around gratuitously waiting more than enough to
apply a patch. I proposed a realistic measure that sees when all the
volatile parts of the glue have evaporated. What do you believe
occurs beyond the point where the glue thickness is essentially zero
and only a tacky sheen that replicates the surface of the tube
remains? Just repeating that this is all wrong and that your patches
are perfect does not resolve anything.

...and what the mechanism is that causes patches to separation from
the center outward.

Hmmm lesseee... If you don't let the glue dry before applying the
patch, the patch don't stick?

I think you have not tested what I explain...

Bull****! I cut through all the patches in a perfectly good tube
and you'd better recognize. None of the patches showed any sign of
pulling away. (As I already pointed out in a previous post.)

Leave the feces out of this. I also explained that I have examined
many patched tubes with partially delaminated patches and explained
that these have two causes. The first is from not removing mold
release (the natural surface of the tube) with sand paper and the
second that the patched tube is immediately put into service. Of
course glue that is not dry is the third cause but that was already
covered in the instruction on waiting before applying the patch.

I have seen the results of properly patched tubes that later had
bulged patches from immediate use after patching. Although the patch
was flat on the tube before inflation, on removal afterwards it was
bulged and had its center delaminated although without leaking then or
later. Subsequent autopsies revealed this condition.

Hold it! Let me know what it should say, and be specific.

Well you could just say, "simply follow the directions in the patch
kit, they work great." I mean, if someone is patching a tube, they
probably have the directions folded up right there.

That won't work because drying time is not a constant and the
instructions do not mention patch curing time in place, something that
you insist does not occur although I can demonstrate it (as you can).

Or you could simply direct people to: allow several minutes for the
glue to dry (until a fingertip pressed lightly onto the glued area
can be pulled away without any hint of stickiness) before firmly
pressing the patch on. While there is a minimum drying time for
glue to be effective, there is no maximum if the glued area can be
kept reasonably clean. The glued area must exceed the area of the
patch so that all the patch's edges are in contact with dry glue.
Here's the best part: Once the patch has been firmly pressed over
the puncture, the tube can be stuffed back into the tire and ridden
immediately without worry, provided the rider has thoroughly checked
the inside of the tire for any protuberances.

Well as I said that works and it must be done at times but you should
not be surprised if it develops a slow leak later and I explain how
this can occur. That the patch should land on a fully prepared area
goes without saying, but the hazard of riding a fresh patch remains,
especially for a tube that is substantially smaller than the tire
cross section, a common practice these days of weight saving. In fact
some of the tubes I find along the road are abut as large in cross
section as the tip of my little finger. This size is smaller than a
common Rema patch when the tube is laid flat for patching.

If you say that, then you can just cut out all that other irrelevant
gobbledygook.

You may call it that but I believe the dynamics of a tire and tube
should be understood for an appreciation of what a patch or boot must
endure. I suppose you haven't tried the business card test of tire
casing distortion or you would be aware of the distortion a tire an
tube experiences with every rotation.

I hope you are aware that in cold weather and high humidity, glue
curing takes longer.

Jobst, "curing" is an irrelevant concept here and you need to get
over it. Just spread the glue on, LET IT DRY, press the patch on,
and ride. That's it, you're done.

OK, so you like to use the term "dry". Well drying takes longer in
cold weather and high humidity. Are you aware of that?

Extreme cold can make patching impossible because the glue crumbles
off the tube. High humidity might mean a few extra minutes of
drying time.

Oh. That's a new concept. I think you'll find that patching glue
does not freeze and does not get brittle with cold temperature. It
just loses volatility and takes longer to dry. Try it, you'll like
it. I only brought that up to underscore that drying time is a
variable for which a different control than a stop watch can be found
and that measure is the appearance of the glue surface and how it
looks when ready to use. I take it that this is what you are arguing
about, nothing else.

Jobst Brandt

R15757 snipe further from cover of anonymity:

I can let the glue dry over night and it is still a tacky sheen in
the morning.

Oh man, this is getting comical. In a previous post some months
ago--when we happened to be discussing this exact issue although you
seem to have forgotten--I mentioned that the glue should dry until
your so-called tacky sheen is all gone.

I guess you have a different definition of tackiness. A clean glossy
surface of dried patch glue remains tacky until it oxidizes and
becomes useless as an adhesive surface for a tire patch. If that
were not so, patches would not adhere at all. Or, conversely, there
would be no need for patch glue.

"Tackiness" I equated with stickiness. I said the glue should dry
until all hints of stickiness have left it, which is easily tested
by pressing a finger or fingernail onto the glued area and pulling
it off.

I think you are redefining tackiness. Smooth surfaces, such as glass,
or a clean fingernail, stick to completely dry Seran Wrap (PVDC) that
has for its useful life a tacky surface. This is the goal of applying
patch glue to a sand papered inner tube. The red gummy surface of the
Rema patch is designed to bond to that surface and combine with it to
a point that it cannot be practically removed... except by heating.
That is a chemical process that takes time.

And you made your ignorance unambiguous when you replied, and please
permit me a paraphrase as I do not wish to look up the exact quote,
that if the glue had dried that much then a patch would not stick to
it "any more than it would stick to a dry window pane."

Can you say this without impugning my intelligence or are you trying
to be rude? As I said, if it did not display tackiness, a
characteristic of smoothness, it would not work as a primer on surfaces
to attract a patch. It all depends on what you visualize under your
definition of "dry enough" and what works.

It was then that it hit me: Jobst Brandt has never actually patched
a tube correctly, so he doesn't know what it's like. Fascinating!

What do you believe is incorrect about tubes that I have patched,
considering that you have never seen patches that I have applied to
tubes. What makes you so adamant in denouncing my ability and
understanding of applying patches? I get the impression that I
somehow caused you injury or embarrassment and that you are trying to
get even.

As I said, have you tried pulling a patch off immediately after
application?

Yes a few times when I was attempting to patch two nearby punctures
with a single patch, and missed. Then I tried to pull the patch off
and reposition...

If so, you will notice that the patch can be pulled off easily even
by pulling the cellophane from one corner.

Eh?? Now you're freakin me out. No--the correctly installed patch
is extremely difficult to remove from the first second after
installation. If you proceed as directed, the patch locks on to the
tube immediately and it ain't comin' off. You better get it right
the first time. If you ever get around to trying it, you'll have
one of those eureka! moments.

I see you avoid explaining why Rema patches are made so that the
cellophane can be peeled from inside to outside after applying the
patch, something that Rema designed so the patch will not peel off
while pulling off the cellophane.

If you don't believe that, how about sticking a patch on half way
while holding onto the raised portion and note how easily it pulls off
without separating the red part from the black, something that is not
the case with a cured patch.

Maybe you can explain in non-Rube Goldberg terms how dry the glue
must be ...

The glue must be dry enough that it loses any hint of stickiness,
easily determined by touch. Dry. Rema directs a five-minute wait,
I have found that 3 minutes is usually enough.

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum? We are not
out on the road to sit around gratuitously waiting more than enough to
apply a patch. I proposed a realistic measure that sees when all the
volatile parts of the glue have evaporated. What do you believe
occurs beyond the point where the glue thickness is essentially zero
and only a tacky sheen that replicates the surface of the tube
remains? Just repeating that this is all wrong and that your patches
are perfect does not resolve anything.

...and what the mechanism is that causes patches to separation from
the center outward.

Hmmm lesseee... If you don't let the glue dry before applying the
patch, the patch don't stick?

I think you have not tested what I explain...

Bull****! I cut through all the patches in a perfectly good tube
and you'd better recognize. None of the patches showed any sign of
pulling away. (As I already pointed out in a previous post.)

Leave the feces out of this. I also explained that I have examined
many patched tubes with partially delaminated patches and explained
that these have two causes. The first is from not removing mold
release (the natural surface of the tube) with sand paper and the
second that the patched tube is immediately put into service. Of
course glue that is not dry is the third cause but that was already
covered in the instruction on waiting before applying the patch.

I have seen the results of properly patched tubes that later had
bulged patches from immediate use after patching. Although the patch
was flat on the tube before inflation, on removal afterwards it was
bulged and had its center delaminated although without leaking then or
later. Subsequent autopsies revealed this condition.

Hold it! Let me know what it should say, and be specific.

Well you could just say, "simply follow the directions in the patch
kit, they work great." I mean, if someone is patching a tube, they
probably have the directions folded up right there.

That won't work because drying time is not a constant and the
instructions do not mention patch curing time in place, something that
you insist does not occur although I can demonstrate it (as you can).

Or you could simply direct people to: allow several minutes for the
glue to dry (until a fingertip pressed lightly onto the glued area
can be pulled away without any hint of stickiness) before firmly
pressing the patch on. While there is a minimum drying time for
glue to be effective, there is no maximum if the glued area can be
kept reasonably clean. The glued area must exceed the area of the
patch so that all the patch's edges are in contact with dry glue.
Here's the best part: Once the patch has been firmly pressed over
the puncture, the tube can be stuffed back into the tire and ridden
immediately without worry, provided the rider has thoroughly checked
the inside of the tire for any protuberances.

Well as I said that works and it must be done at times but you should
not be surprised if it develops a slow leak later and I explain how
this can occur. That the patch should land on a fully prepared area
goes without saying, but the hazard of riding a fresh patch remains,
especially for a tube that is substantially smaller than the tire
cross section, a common practice these days of weight saving. In fact
some of the tubes I find along the road are abut as large in cross
section as the tip of my little finger. This size is smaller than a
common Rema patch when the tube is laid flat for patching.

If you say that, then you can just cut out all that other irrelevant
gobbledygook.

You may call it that but I believe the dynamics of a tire and tube
should be understood for an appreciation of what a patch or boot must
endure. I suppose you haven't tried the business card test of tire
casing distortion or you would be aware of the distortion a tire an
tube experiences with every rotation.

I hope you are aware that in cold weather and high humidity, glue
curing takes longer.

Jobst, "curing" is an irrelevant concept here and you need to get
over it. Just spread the glue on, LET IT DRY, press the patch on,
and ride. That's it, you're done.

OK, so you like to use the term "dry". Well drying takes longer in
cold weather and high humidity. Are you aware of that?

Extreme cold can make patching impossible because the glue crumbles
off the tube. High humidity might mean a few extra minutes of
drying time.

Oh. That's a new concept. I think you'll find that patching glue
does not freeze and does not get brittle with cold temperature. It
just loses volatility and takes longer to dry. Try it, you'll like
it. I only brought that up to underscore that drying time is a
variable for which a different control than a stop watch can be found
and that measure is the appearance of the glue surface and how it
looks when ready to use. I take it that this is what you are arguing
about, nothing else.

Jobst Brandt

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:21 GMT,
,
wrote:


OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum? We are not
out on the road to sit around gratuitously waiting more than enough to
apply a patch. I proposed a realistic measure that sees when all the
volatile parts of the glue have evaporated.

My grandfather lit it with his Zippo.
--
zk

Jobst Brandt wrote, variously:

If you don't believe that, how about sticking a patch on half way
while holding onto the raised portion and note how easily it pulls off
without separating the red part from the black, something that is not
the case with a cured patch.


I'm sorry but you are wrong. If I tried this after letting the glue dry
properly, the stuck half of patch would be stuck, very difficult to remove.
That you keep repeating such nonsense I can only take as further evidence that
you don't know how to patch a tube.

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum? We are not
out on the road to sit around gratuitously waiting more than enough to
apply a patch.

No, five minutes would be plenty under just about any circumstances, which is
why the Rema instructions indicate 5 minute minimum. As I stated already, 3
minutes is usually enough for the glue to dry to the point where it is no
longer sticky to the touch. How hard is that?

I proposed a realistic measure that sees when all the
volatile parts of the glue have evaporated.

You proposed not riding a patched tube for 24 hours, which is silly.


Well as I said that works and it must be done at times but you should
not be surprised if it develops a slow leak later and I explain how
this can occur.

Jobst, you are completely delusional. Riding a fresh patch is not a problem in
and of itself. Only when the patch job is botched is it a problem.

If one of my patches sprang a slow leak (1) I would pinpoint the leak without
too much trouble and (2) it would surprise the hell out of me. I have not
experienced a leaky patch in almost 20 years.

but the hazard of riding a fresh patch remains,

????? Earth to Jobst.

You may call it that but I believe the dynamics of a tire and tube
should be understood for an appreciation of what a patch or boot must
endure.

No, when it comes to a properly installed patch, those dynamics don't seem to
matter one little bit.

drying time is a
variable for which a different control than a stop watch can be found
and that measure is the appearance of the glue surface and how it
looks when ready to use.

Wrong again, sorry. Appearance is not a good indicator. The glue looks the same
when it is still sticky, and not ready, as it does when it is dry and ready.

So, are you going to change the FAQ or what?

Robert

Of patching in extreme cold, Jobst wrote:

Oh. That's a new concept. I think you'll find that patching glue
does not freeze and does not get brittle with cold temperature.

Have you ever tried to patch a tube in subzero temperatures? Often you'll find
that the glue simply refuses to adhere to the tube.

Robert

Benjamin Lewis wrote:

Perhaps your finger or fingernail is slightly oily. As Jobst says, if you
leave the glue on overnight, it is still slightly tacky in the morning. I
also have found this to be the case, at least with the glue that comes with
Rema patches.

Certainly not my experience. Although the glue patch will _look_ tacky no
matter what, it loses any noticeable tacky feeling after about 3-4 minutes.

Robert

"Zoot Katz" wrote in message
...
Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:21 GMT,
,
wrote:


OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum?

I use very little glue and I'm off in under 3 minutes.

Greg

G.T. wrote:
"Zoot Katz" wrote in message
...

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:21 GMT,
,
wrote:


OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum?


I use very little glue and I'm off in under 3 minutes.

Greg



You're not meant to sniff it.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:39:52 -0700, Zoot Katz
wrote:
wrote:
R15757 wrote:
Here's the thing, Jobst. I don't believe you know how to

{cue theme from Good Bad & Ugly?!?}
Bill "popping some corn for this one" S.

Don't let it burn.
Where's Rick with the beer?

Sorry, I was loading the cooler into the truck...I haven't got a
bike trailer to carry it, nor sufficient bike legs to power it...
--
Rick Onanian

best part: Once the patch has been firmly pressed over the
puncture, the tube can be stuffed back into the tire and ridden
immediately without worry, provided the rider has throroughly
checked the inside of the tire for any protuberances.

It has been my experience, that the patch holds much better if immediately
put back into the tire and inflated to riding pressure. I would think that
the patch is held in place by the tube against the tire. I try not to put a
freshly fixed tube into the bag. Either fix it and ride it, or remove and
replace and fix at home.

I am confused, if you say wait till the glue is no longer tackie, that means
sticky, what will keep it stuck to the tube?