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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:47:31 -0400, Curtis L. Russell
wrote: On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:14:31 -0400, Bob Wheeler wrote: It would be nice if they were maintenance free, but I suspect not. Shimano has originated a shrewd way to move product. More power to them. Not based on what you've said. They made it difficult to upgrade and presumably most of the stuff on a Paramount from the 70s still works. So they've discouraged a sale until you buy a new bike - which is irrelevant to the issue of compatibility. At one time I owned bikes that ran from a 1975 Italvega with all Campi to a Lotus Supreme to my wife's Terry and Viner to my son's Team Schwinn to a couple ofSantana tandems. Oh, yeah, and a freewheel BMX-style bike. The only issue of compatibility that came up in doing the maintenance and support on these bikes were pedals. And that's because its expensive to buy a separate pair of shoes for each bike. In all the ten or so years that I supported the bikes for three grown bike riders, not once did compatibility cause me any issues in maintaining and repairing the bikes. The total special tools to maintain this variety came down to tools to easily remove freewheels and cogs, the Campi seatbolt tool and IIRC, a rather large pedal tool for the special platform pedal on the Lotus Supreme (could be remembering that wrong, though). I've been hearing this 'scam' argument for at least 25 years. The argument works better for new bike retailers than for Shimano. Shimano probably has a bigger mark-up on retail gruppos than on the ones they sell to the bike manufacturers. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels... How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time finding these. It's possible, just hard. -- Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply |
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#12
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
Would that were true. The frame was chrome, but it rusted, so I
repainted it. The Campy deraillers looked great but didn't work very well, so they were replaced with SunTour. Other than that things are much as they were, but it is a much used bike -- hardly vintage. Terry Morse wrote: Bob Wheeler wrote: I have a Paramount that weighs 21 lb.. I doubt that changing a few components will shave much off that. You have a vintage Paramount that's been hanging in a garage for 25 years? Don't touch a thing on it! You have a highly prized classic. -- terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/ -- Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/ ECHIP, Inc. --- Randomness comes in bunches. |
#13
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
Bob in CT wrote in
news How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time finding these. It's possible, just hard. I'm about to run into that. I'm thinking of upgrading or replacing some worn-out components on a '92 Trek hybrid, maybe have some new wheels built. It's been converted to drop bars as more of a touring bike than a hybrid, and it's 7-speed. My LBS guy said he can get the 7-speed parts, but I wonder for how long. And this is for a bike that's only 12 years old. I should probably get off the stick and have this done now, and not wait a year or two, or the parts may not be available. Another option would be a full rebuild with the current generation of components, if it can be made to fit the bike (I'm pretty sure it can). But that's going to cost a small fortune at individual part prices. I can see why people just buy a new bike instead of upgrading an older frame. I can probably get a new Cannondale or Trek touring bike for the cost of the component upgrade (including LBS rebuild fees) on the older bike. -- Mike Barrs |
#14
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
"Bob Wheeler" wrote in message
... Shimano seems to have conned the world. Of course the new shifting mechanisms are nice and more precise than those that I have on my bikes, but the improvement is not earth shattering. What shocked me, however, was the fact that, to add these to one of my bikes, in addition to the crankset and freewheel, I would have to replace the bottom bracket, rebuild the rear wheel, and probably replace the deraillers. Moreover, nothing was compatible. Well damn. I don't think that very many of the parts on my 1994 Corvette would be compatible with the 1969 Impala that I used to drive. Maybe I should complain to Chevrolet. It is ridiculous to complain that parts made in 2004 won't easily fit a 34 year old bicycle. People will complain about anything. |
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:54:13 -0400, Bob Wheeler wrote:
but apparently there is no backward compatibility within a manufacturer's product line. An upgrade seems as costly and time consuming as a new build. What a marketer's dream. Make a cosmetic change, and sell a new group. I see that this is what Shimano is doing in December -- does anyone care? It's a 30 year old bike--what do you expect? I've got a 25 year old bike, and it's old derailleurs handle a modern wheelset and 8 speed cassette with no complaint and the venerable SR cranks accept clipless pedals. The 600 long pulls are perfectly happy with the set of Bontrager shoes I bought on sale... I doubt you'd have this easy of a time with a 1970 Buick. Shut up and ride, you sound like you've got rambling old man syndrome. ....well in my day we'd milk a cow with tweezers barefoot on our heads and we liked it dammit! |
#16
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:59:22 +0000, Bob in CT wrote:
How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time finding these. It's possible, just hard. Just use an 8-speed. It'll work just fine with friction components. You'll have to spread the frame a bit to make it fit, so I'd recommend this for steel frames only. If you're clicky, then around $50 will get you a Sora derailleur and downtube shifter that'll interface flawlessly with the new wheel. |
#17
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:29:35 +0000, Steve Knight wrote:
you have to go outside of shimano and campy to get them. but my hubs are sealed cartridge bearings and my headset too. My BB is too--pressed cartridge Campy from the late seventies. |
#18
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
Bob Wheeler wrote:
I note that one of the things we, in 1970, thought would soon be replaced is still with us -- loose balls in a cup and cone. That is the single most telling sign of Shimano's hegemony in the bike parts business, if you ask me-- cup & cone hubs. It's as if cars had managed to develop all their various sophistications since the days of the Model T, but most of them still started with a hand crank in the front. How many other 21st century machines still have user-adjusted, non-replaceable cup & cone bearings for critical mechanisms? I can't think of even one. As for the lack of backwards compatibility in succesively more complicated shifting systems, that's easier to accept. I order to get improving shifting performance from increasing numbers of gears, more parameters of the system (dimensions, spacings, etc.) have had to be controlled by the component manufacturer. Previous systems that did not control as many variables are unlikely to function as desired when required to perform a more demeanding task. There are lots of tricks and workarounds in reconciling old and new equipment, and a seasoned expert mechanic will be familiar with many of them. A younger or less experienced mechanic, who may never have been familiar with the old stuff to begin with, probably will not be able to offer the whole range of usable partial updates. Chalo Colina |
#19
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:59:22 GMT, Bob in CT
wrote: How many seven-speed wheelsets can you find? I had a very hard time finding these. It's possible, just hard. -- Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply I have enough parts to build a couple, but replacements for the 5-speed are more difficult if you don't want to spread the rear stays. OTOH, I had at least three freewheels in good shape and the Campagnolo (Italvega) and Shimano (Lotus) hubs showed no reason to replace the hubs. I had three sets of wheels each and could rebuild them when needed. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels... |
#20
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Shrewd maketing by Shimano -- too bad for cyclists.
In article ,
Bob Wheeler wrote: I hung up my bike in 1970 after having been a cyclist for over 30 years. Recently, I pulled some off their hangers, dusted them off and climbed aboard. It's as much fun as it ever was. I needed a few things, like gloves and a frame pump. The tires and tubes were still in good shape, as were moving parts such as bottom brackets and hubs -- I used VersiLube G322L in those days and it seems to have lasted. So I went to the local bike shop, and was amazed at the changes, but then I looked more closely, and did a bit of reading. Wow! Shimano seems to have conned the world. Of course the new shifting mechanisms are nice and more precise than those that I have on my bikes, but the improvement is not earth shattering. What shocked me, however, was the fact that, to add these to one of my bikes, in addition to the crankset and freewheel, I would have to replace the bottom bracket, rebuild the rear wheel, and probably replace the deraillers. Moreover, nothing was compatible. I can't really fault manufacturer's for doing things differently from their competitors, but apparently there is no backward compatibility within a manufacturer's product line. An upgrade seems as costly and time consuming as a new build. What a marketer's dream. Make a cosmetic change, and sell a new group. I see that this is what Shimano is doing in December -- does anyone care? No. If you want indexing, it's basically not possible to make an old shifter (barring a bit of adaptation and luck) work. The key issues are that the newer shifters have more precise mechanisms and different leverage ratios that make indexing simpler. But of course, the only reason to upgrade is to gain the advantages of indexing, or maybe to lose a few grams. You're not being forced to upgrade, and I happily ride an old Bianchi with mid-grade friction Suntour stuff. I upgraded the front brake, because I am a true believer in dual-pivots and a hater of the nastier sort of old Dia-Compe single-pivot brake. This would have required no other changes to the bike had I bought the exact right parts (I didn't; I used a bodge of available parts to do the same thing slightly more cheaply). If you want new shifters, you can still buy them, and they can be switched between index and friction settings, meaning they will work with your gear. Further, a switch to indexed (as opposed to brifteur) shifting takes three component changes: rear derailleur, rear shifter lever, and rear hub. That last one is a bit of a pain, but given that a built _wheel_ can be had for a C-note or less, my sympathy is lacking. If you're willing to look into new old stock or readily available used parts, you could easily go to 6- or 7- speed indexing with no changes other than the shifter, derailleur, and a fresh cassette. Hm. You might have to fiddle with the rear axle spacing or something. Don't quote me. So what are you complaining about, exactly? I note that one of the things we, in 1970, thought would soon be replaced is still with us -- loose balls in a cup and cone. In all places where you might find these, there are cartridge bearing replacements available. Now, what has brand S (and by extension, Campy) done for us? -integrated brake-and-shifter setups are a clear win for racers, and a pleasant convenience for most cyclists who try them. -parts are now lighter and nominally stronger than before -brakes (in my opinion) are better than they were 20 years ago -more gears -better shifting through pins and ramps. Indeed, even without changing to indexing, I have improved the shifting of several bikes by adding Hyperglide (or clones thereof) freewheels. -- Ryan Cousineau, http://www.wiredcola.com President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club |
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