Build it and they won't come

On 10/11/2017 9:42 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 4:54:17 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

It seems unlikely, at best, to believe that you didn't understand the
content of the original posts between Frank and I where he commented
that punching holes in a paper target with a gun and thinking you were
a big, bad, man was childish.

I then replied "like a 60 year old guy on a CF racing bike".

I can only assume that you are interjecting your off topic remarks
deliberately. So yes, goodbye.

Walking off in a snit again John? Really, get over yourself. You're beginning to sound like Frank who denies that where the strongest guns laws are we have the highest rates of gun crimes and where the least gun laws are in effect the murder rates are insignificant.

You mean like Canada vs. the U.S.? Or like Windsor vs. Detroit? Got
numbers?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-10-10 16:28, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 15:53:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-10-07 07:37, wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 7:53:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 15:08:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-10-05 20:22, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 07:34:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-10-04 19:03, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 07:41:03 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-10-03 17:53, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 16:33:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-10-03 12:34, jbeattie wrote:

[...]



There are other options. We could have invested
the SS trust in the market like Norway -- it now
has $1T in its sovereign wealth fund (from oil).
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01...n_4576887.html


But Norway is socialist and bad. Bad Norway, bad! You're too rich!


They are an oil-rich nation which makes it easy to
amass wealth. Just like Venezuela is except they
didn't squander it through wanton socialism.

"wanton socialism"? Aren't you one of those that ague
that the "government" should spend millions of dollars
to build bicycle paths for a tiny percentage of the
population?


IMO the best would be if we could build our own, like in
Utah and other places. And yes, when roads for cars are
built one should rightfully expect that cyclists are also
served. If no road is built then no bike path needs to be
built. Everyone who rides MTB a lot knows this.

What "we"? The citizens of California? Or the bicycleing
community?


We the people. It doesn't matter which state or country. The
problem of a lack of cycling infractructure or bad "solution"
is almost universal, maybe with the exception of the
Netherlands and Denmark.


As for building roads to incorporate service for cyclists?
You mean because of the road tax that all the bicyclists
pay?


They also pay taxes, not just because most also own cars but
because they have income. However, that is not the point. If
a road or other infrastructure is built and prevents safe
cycling or walking the builder
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of such infrastructure has an obligation to make sure nobody
is being cut off by it.

Of course it is the point. California has a gas tax which pays
most of their road costs. In fact wasn't there a recent
increase, or plan to increase, the tax to pay for the crappy
roads in the state?

Do bicycles pay a gas tax?

Or to put it another way, if California levied a tax on
bicycles to pay their share of the public road uses would you
be the first to complain?


Read again what I wrote. I underlined the salient point. Do you
really not understand it or just pretend you don't?

Yes I understood it and wonder about your perception.

After all there are about 50,000 miles of interstate highways in
the U.S. which were apparently built with no thought to bicycles
and pedestrians.


That is fine. If it cuts off an existing bike or foot path that is not
fine and the builders should be obliged to provide an under- or
overpass. If it turns a formerly "all vehicles ok" road into a "motor
vehicles only" road they must build MUPs or similar. _Not_ on the
cyclist's dime.

I can't say for the Autobahn but certainly I have been on a large
number of limited access or toll roads that had ignored completely any
MUP or other bicycle oriented access.

But you use the word "be obliged". Be obligated by who?


By the law. Just like if you build a structure that impedes your
neighbor's access to his house you are obliged to accommodate him.


And yes, there is a rule called "eminent domain":
"The property of subjects is under the eminent domain of the state, so
that the state or those who act for it may use and even alienate and
destroy such property, not only in the case of extreme necessity, in
which even private persons have a right over the property of others,
but for ends of public utility, to which ends those who founded civil
society must be supposed to have intended that private ends should
give way. But, when this is done, the state is bound to make good the
loss to those who lose their property."

But that appears to concern property that merits " extreme necessity"


Exactly. It also can mean there wasn't any other choice. However, here
there was.


label but given that you own two cars which you are free to use I
can't see how a bicycle path can meet that criteria.
After all, from own posts it is obvious that your use of a bicycle
isn't necessary.


It is for several reasons.

1. Environmentally.
2. Health.
3. Lower danger to others.
4. Cost for some people.

And so on. But it doesn't matter. Fact is that bicycles have been there
before cars. Some people argue that roads were not built for cars but
that's largely baloney. They were first built for horse carriages
("cars" of olden days) and later motor vehicles. However, bicycles were
always around and used and one cannot simply tell the local population
"Well, forget it from now on, you can no longer use you bicycle to go
over yonder. Take the car or the bus".

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 9:47:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
snip

But you use the word "be obliged". Be obligated by who?


By the law. Just like if you build a structure that impedes your
neighbor's access to his house you are obliged to accommodate him.

A brilliant lawyer I know litigated that issue: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html
https://www.leagle.com/decision/19951583891p2d69211571

You need a law to start with, however. Joerg needs to go to his legislature. It's not a long ride to Sacramento -- and mostly on the American River Trail.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-10-11 10:46, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 9:47:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
snip

But you use the word "be obliged". Be obligated by who?


By the law. Just like if you build a structure that impedes your
neighbor's access to his house you are obliged to accommodate him.

A brilliant lawyer I know litigated that issue:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html


https://www.leagle.com/decision/19951583891p2d69211571

You need a law to start with, however. Joerg needs to go to his
legislature. It's not a long ride to Sacramento -- and mostly on the
American River Trail.


We simply vote with our feet (the pedaling ones). Some communities do
nothing. Others where the leaders are smart require any new road
construction to have bicycling facilities. Folsom is an example.
Therefore, I spend more of my money in such communities than in the ones
without smart leaders. Many others think the same way and the results
are mostly felt by restaurants and pubs. For me it's also hardware
stores and such.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 10/11/2017 6:23 AM, Duane wrote:
Nobody is stupid enough to
think all 11 speed CF bikes are useful only for TDF riders. Both 11 speed
and CF frames are pretty much the standard offering at most bike shops
around here.

Of course, people are allowed to buy what they prefer. But I see that
"standard offering at most bike shops" as somewhat weird.

Think about it. Most people who go into most bike shops are never going
to race. Most are almost never going to try to ride fast. But it sounds
like that "standard offering" is optimized for fast riding in many ways.

I know some CF 11-speed bikes make it possible to (say) fit racks and
fenders and lights and decent-sized bags and wider tires and low gears.
But if your shops are like ours, the ones that have 11 speed CF as
"standard" tend to reject those ideas.

"28mm tires? Sorry, not on these bikes. The brakes won't allow them."
That's what a friend of mine heard.

People are allowed to buy what they prefer. But I think a lot of people
are convinced to "prefer" something that's ill-suited to their real
world riding.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/11/2017 10:46 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

A brilliant lawyer I know litigated that issue: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html
https://www.leagle.com/decision/19951583891p2d69211571

You need a law to start with, however. Joerg needs to go to his legislature. It's not a long ride to Sacramento -- and mostly on the American River Trail.

LOL.

"She heard our complaints and looked us in the eye and said, “So, sue
us.� We were taken aback."

Why was anyone taken aback? Cities do this all the time. They break the
law knowing that it's rare than ordinary citizens will actually sue
because of the expense. When the citizens sue, and win, it's fine since
it's one out of a thousand times that the city has to comply and they're
no worse off than if they had complied in the first place (other than
the legal cost of outside counsel which the taxpayers end up paying). In
Portland they were lucky to find a lawyer that would take this on,
presumably pro-Bono or for a reduced fee. Too bad there were no punitive
damages!

I'm currently a plaintiff in a case against our city, a case that
started before I was elected, where they gave our grassroots residents
group no choice but to sue them.

I think the corruption is even worse at the local level.

On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 12:25:17 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/11/2017 6:23 AM, Duane wrote:
Nobody is stupid enough to
think all 11 speed CF bikes are useful only for TDF riders. Both 11 speed
and CF frames are pretty much the standard offering at most bike shops
around here.

Of course, people are allowed to buy what they prefer. But I see that
"standard offering at most bike shops" as somewhat weird.

Think about it. Most people who go into most bike shops are never going
to race. Most are almost never going to try to ride fast. But it sounds
like that "standard offering" is optimized for fast riding in many ways.

I know some CF 11-speed bikes make it possible to (say) fit racks and
fenders and lights and decent-sized bags and wider tires and low gears.
But if your shops are like ours, the ones that have 11 speed CF as
"standard" tend to reject those ideas.

"28mm tires? Sorry, not on these bikes. The brakes won't allow them."
That's what a friend of mine heard.

People are allowed to buy what they prefer. But I think a lot of people
are convinced to "prefer" something that's ill-suited to their real
world riding.

He said "standard offering" -- not the "only offering." BTW, my CF 11sp Norco Search gravel bike will take 35mm knobbies and fenders -- but alas, no rack. It is the softest riding road bike I have ever owned, yet it is stiffer than a steel touring bike through the BB and front end and weighs about four pounds less. If I wanted to use a rack, I'd put it on my aluminum CAADX. The Norco doesn't purport to be a touring bike.

Go into ANY bike store around here, and you'll find a variety of road bikes capable of taking big tires, fenders and racks. Take a tour of River City Bikes, for example: https://tinyurl.com/ycodvjcx They're common as fleas.

In some shops, its all they carry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z5vtm4pd2I That's just the front showroom. The back is where I got my dyno mood light -- but not from this chipper guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8iThtyViVI Be a true hipster at yet another steel-is-real (heavy) shop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TSMp6f-9z4

Or maybe a recumbent! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvG51TC3gOA&t=39s
For Joerg, a shop with beer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwNwBcu8t18
Classic randonneur bikes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15JHdp092qg
We have steel bikes coming out our a**** up here in Portland!

One of my faves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NYDcJQyAAg Anything you want, they have it -- although it may have to come from the warehouse. Most of the stock is out of sight.

Where I bought my last bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5LG4gXnw-k Nice guys.

There are more bicycle options now than ever before in the history of bicycles. Transport yourself back to your favorite shop in 1975. Ask them for a bike with an IGH, Gates Belt, discs, fender/rack mounts, flat bars and shock forks. They'd look at you and say "WTF . . . are you from the future? Who are you . . . get out of my store!" Around here, a salesman/woman (who knows these days), would waive its arm to an area of the store . . . "behold!" I can walk five blocks and buy a work bike with a giant bucket in front, which I always wanted! http://www.bikegallery.com/ Actually, I do want Trek's super eBike commuter -- after I win the lottery.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-10-11 13:09, sms wrote:
On 10/11/2017 10:46 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

A brilliant lawyer I know litigated that issue:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html

https://www.leagle.com/decision/19951583891p2d69211571

You need a law to start with, however. Joerg needs to go to his
legislature. It's not a long ride to Sacramento -- and mostly on the
American River Trail.

LOL.

"She heard our complaints and looked us in the eye and said, “So, sue
us.� We were taken aback."

Why was anyone taken aback? Cities do this all the time. They break the
law knowing that it's rare than ordinary citizens will actually sue
because of the expense. When the citizens sue, and win, it's fine since
it's one out of a thousand times that the city has to comply and they're
no worse off than if they had complied in the first place (other than
the legal cost of outside counsel which the taxpayers end up paying). In
Portland they were lucky to find a lawyer that would take this on,
presumably pro-Bono or for a reduced fee. Too bad there were no punitive
damages!

I'm currently a plaintiff in a case against our city, a case that
started before I was elected, where they gave our grassroots residents
group no choice but to sue them.

I think the corruption is even worse at the local level.


It's worse. If the citizen loses, he pays. If the citizen wins, he also
pays along with his other fellow citizens in the community, only this
time as a taxpayer but in the end it's the same.

Until there is some personal accountability such as salary and pension
claw-back for gross misbehavior in office nothing will change.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 10/11/2017 1:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Go into ANY bike store around here, and you'll find a variety of road bikes capable of taking big tires, fenders and racks. Take a tour of River City Bikes, for example: https://tinyurl.com/ycodvjcx They're common as fleas.

In some shops, its all they carry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z5vtm4pd2I That's just the front showroom. The back is where I got my dyno mood light -- but not from this chipper guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8iThtyViVI Be a true hipster at yet another steel-is-real (heavy) shop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TSMp6f-9z4

There you go, bragging about Portland again. Not everyone is a hipster
like you who lives in a city with the kinds of shops you enjoy.

It is encouraging to see some ads for CF bicycles that boast about how
wide of a tire they can accommodate. I.e. "The Carbon Sprint CF PRO Disc
upgrades to:

Shimano 105 / 5800 2x11 deraileurs, Most Powerful Hydraulic Disc Brakes,
WTB TCS Tubeless compatible rim wheelset, Lightweight Carbon frames.
Precision Carbon bladed forks are color matched to frames
Well equipped with 700x28c Continental Tires. Frame and forks are
designed to be Capable of using tires as wide as 700x45c to dominate
gravel roads or as narrow as 700x25c for maximum speed on your commute.
Laugh and float over rough roads, chipseal. Rumble over gravel and revel
in your powerful hydraulic disc brakes through virtually all weather
conditions."

As to racks, yeah, it's not that easy to do racks on a CF frame but it's
not impossible. A rack that connects to the rear QR at the bottom and to
a rear rack seat collar seatpost clamp at the top should be possible if
anyone really wants to have a rack on a CF frame.

jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 12:25:17 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/11/2017 6:23 AM, Duane wrote:
Nobody is stupid enough to
think all 11 speed CF bikes are useful only for TDF riders. Both 11 speed
and CF frames are pretty much the standard offering at most bike shops
around here.

Of course, people are allowed to buy what they prefer. But I see that
"standard offering at most bike shops" as somewhat weird.

Think about it. Most people who go into most bike shops are never going
to race. Most are almost never going to try to ride fast. But it sounds
like that "standard offering" is optimized for fast riding in many ways.

I know some CF 11-speed bikes make it possible to (say) fit racks and
fenders and lights and decent-sized bags and wider tires and low gears.
But if your shops are like ours, the ones that have 11 speed CF as
"standard" tend to reject those ideas.

"28mm tires? Sorry, not on these bikes. The brakes won't allow them."
That's what a friend of mine heard.

People are allowed to buy what they prefer. But I think a lot of people
are convinced to "prefer" something that's ill-suited to their real
world riding.

He said "standard offering" -- not the "only offering." BTW, my CF 11sp
Norco Search gravel bike will take 35mm knobbies and fenders -- but alas,
no rack. It is the softest riding road bike I have ever owned, yet it is
stiffer than a steel touring bike through the BB and front end and weighs
about four pounds less. If I wanted to use a rack, I'd put it on my
aluminum CAADX. The Norco doesn't purport to be a touring bike.

Go into ANY bike store around here, and you'll find a variety of road
bikes capable of taking big tires, fenders and racks. Take a tour of
River City Bikes, for example: https://tinyurl.com/ycodvjcx They're common as fleas.

In some shops, its all they carry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z5vtm4pd2I That's just the front
showroom. The back is where I got my dyno mood light -- but not from
this chipper guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8iThtyViVI Be a true
hipster at yet another steel-is-real (heavy) shop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TSMp6f-9z4

Or maybe a recumbent! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvG51TC3gOA&t=39s
For Joerg, a shop with beer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwNwBcu8t18
Classic randonneur bikes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15JHdp092qg
We have steel bikes coming out our a**** up here in Portland!

One of my faves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NYDcJQyAAg Anything
you want, they have it -- although it may have to come from the
warehouse. Most of the stock is out of sight.

Where I bought my last bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5LG4gXnw-k Nice guys.

There are more bicycle options now than ever before in the history of
bicycles. Transport yourself back to your favorite shop in 1975. Ask
them for a bike with an IGH, Gates Belt, discs, fender/rack mounts, flat
bars and shock forks. They'd look at you and say "WTF . . . are you from
the future? Who are you . . . get out of my store!" Around here, a
salesman/woman (who knows these days), would waive its arm to an area of
the store . . . "behold!" I can walk five blocks and buy a work bike
with a giant bucket in front, which I always wanted!
http://www.bikegallery.com/ Actually, I do want Trek's super eBike
commuter -- after I win the lottery.



Exactly. My Tarmac won’t take real fenders but i could have purchased a
Roubaix that would. Or a Sector that I could turn into a touring bike.
But hell, I had a Bianchi Volpe that was an excellent touring bike.

But that’s what was dumb about the original comment. 11 speed or Cf frames
don’t really define anything. An 11 speed Roubaix can be a decent commuter
as you already know.

--
duane