11 speed gears

On 2016-03-08 10:59, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-3-2016 om 19:09 schreef Joe Riel:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem they probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back of the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to keep the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles and reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know for a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied (I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with internal
cams.



+1. The first thing I do is when I get a new bike or wheels with
external cam QR is get rid of them and replace them with simple Shimano
internal one. I have a whole drawer with external cam QR by now. DT
swiss, Hope, Mavic all utter junk. The force you feel when closing them
tells you nothing about the clamping force exerted.


Do you have a part number for the Shimano QR? I'd need one with the
utmost force, higher = better.

One concern I always have is those little threads on the nut on the
other side, that I might strip them out. But maybe that isn't so critical?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/8/2016 12:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 10:09, Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake
caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake
caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem they
probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and
cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back of
the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK
because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to keep
the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the
caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem
with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles and
reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction
just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough
to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the
lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know for
a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the
inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied
(I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with
external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with
internal
cams.


Not sure what that means. I can't make out a P/N on there
because it's all scraped up but it is a "A-Class Wheels" QR.
The cam is part of the handle and I set it so it takes
almost all my strength to shut it despite being well greased
with mounting paste. That's the only way it has enough force
to (barely) withstand the braking forces.

As Mr Riel noted, the closed-cam (usually steel bell) design
gives a lot more clamping pressure for a given hand force
than the open ( usually aluminum) style.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2016 1:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 10:59, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-3-2016 om 19:09 schreef Joe Riel:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake
caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake
caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem
they probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and
cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back
of the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK
because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to
keep the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the
caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem
with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles
and reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction
just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough
to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the
lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know
for a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the
inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied
(I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with
external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with
internal
cams.



+1. The first thing I do is when I get a new bike or
wheels with
external cam QR is get rid of them and replace them with
simple Shimano
internal one. I have a whole drawer with external cam QR
by now. DT
swiss, Hope, Mavic all utter junk. The force you feel when
closing them
tells you nothing about the clamping force exerted.


Do you have a part number for the Shimano QR? I'd need one
with the utmost force, higher = better.

One concern I always have is those little threads on the nut
on the other side, that I might strip them out. But maybe
that isn't so critical?


Here's a current model Tacx:

http://www.labicicletta.com/media/ca...ase-skewer.jpg

Any QR of that style (from about 1930 to present) in any
brand. Oil cam, go ride; they just work better.

For those (and I am one) who obsess over small things, these
were best for clamping leverage:

file:///C:/DOCUME~1/ADMINI~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/3826331350_2ff31a16ca_b.jpg

but god luck finding one now.

As Mr Holtman and Mr Riel already mentioned, throw out your
QRs with aluminum open cam. They suck.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2016-03-08 11:22, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/8/2016 12:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 10:09, Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake
caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake
caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem they
probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and
cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back of
the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK
because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to keep
the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the
caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem
with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles and
reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction
just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough
to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the
lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know for
a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the
inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied
(I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with
external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with
internal
cams.


Not sure what that means. I can't make out a P/N on there
because it's all scraped up but it is a "A-Class Wheels" QR.
The cam is part of the handle and I set it so it takes
almost all my strength to shut it despite being well greased
with mounting paste. That's the only way it has enough force
to (barely) withstand the braking forces.

As Mr Riel noted, the closed-cam (usually steel bell) design gives a lot
more clamping pressure for a given hand force than the open ( usually
aluminum) style.


Ok, that explains it, then mine is open cam. It's aluminum and the
handle itself is the cam via being slightly excentric around the pivot
points.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 10:59, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-3-2016 om 19:09 schreef Joe Riel:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem they probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back of the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to keep the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles and reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know for a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied (I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with internal
cams.



+1. The first thing I do is when I get a new bike or wheels with
external cam QR is get rid of them and replace them with simple Shimano
internal one. I have a whole drawer with external cam QR by now. DT
swiss, Hope, Mavic all utter junk. The force you feel when closing them
tells you nothing about the clamping force exerted.


Do you have a part number for the Shimano QR? I'd need one with the
utmost force, higher = better.

One concern I always have is those little threads on the nut on the
other side, that I might strip them out. But maybe that isn't so critical?


They don't get any better than these, only shinier and more expensive
https://www.bike-components.de/de/Sh...spanner-p7418/



--
Lou

On 2016-03-08 11:30, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/8/2016 1:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 10:59, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-3-2016 om 19:09 schreef Joe Riel:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake
caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake
caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem
they probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and
cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back
of the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK
because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to
keep the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the
caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem
with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles
and reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction
just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough
to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the
lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know
for a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the
inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied
(I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with
external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with
internal
cams.



+1. The first thing I do is when I get a new bike or
wheels with
external cam QR is get rid of them and replace them with
simple Shimano
internal one. I have a whole drawer with external cam QR
by now. DT
swiss, Hope, Mavic all utter junk. The force you feel when
closing them
tells you nothing about the clamping force exerted.


Do you have a part number for the Shimano QR? I'd need one
with the utmost force, higher = better.

One concern I always have is those little threads on the nut
on the other side, that I might strip them out. But maybe
that isn't so critical?


Here's a current model Tacx:

http://www.labicicletta.com/media/ca...ase-skewer.jpg


Any QR of that style (from about 1930 to present) in any brand. Oil cam,
go ride; they just work better.


Aha, thanks. That's the old style Shimano and I have those on my road
bike. Makes it easy, I can just swap'em. The road bike has rim brakes so
no concern about the axle coming out. It should be happy with the MTB
QR. Of course, the Shimano purists would then say that I defiled the
classic Shimano 600 equipment on my vintage road bike, grupo or whatever
they call that these days :-)


For those (and I am one) who obsess over small things, these were best
for clamping leverage:

file:///C:/DOCUME~1/ADMINI~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/3826331350_2ff31a16ca_b.jpg

but god luck finding one now.


This tries to access your computer's hard drive which won't work and I
wouldn't do that anyhow :-)


As Mr Holtman and Mr Riel already mentioned, throw out your QRs with
aluminum open cam. They suck.


Seems they sure do even after I oiled it and all. It simply won't hold
the front axle in place. By now the fork might be too far worn inside
the left drop-out though. It has about 3000 (hard) miles on it with the
stock QR and I've gone through 4-5 sets of brake pads in that time.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-03-08 11:49, Lou Holtman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 10:59, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-3-2016 om 19:09 schreef Joe Riel:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem they probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back of the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to keep the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles and reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know for a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied (I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with internal
cams.



+1. The first thing I do is when I get a new bike or wheels with
external cam QR is get rid of them and replace them with simple Shimano
internal one. I have a whole drawer with external cam QR by now. DT
swiss, Hope, Mavic all utter junk. The force you feel when closing them
tells you nothing about the clamping force exerted.


Do you have a part number for the Shimano QR? I'd need one with the
utmost force, higher = better.

One concern I always have is those little threads on the nut on the
other side, that I might strip them out. But maybe that isn't so critical?


They don't get any better than these, only shinier and more expensive
https://www.bike-components.de/de/Sh...spanner-p7418/


Thanks. I have those in the Shimano 600 set on my old road bike so I'll
just swap that with the MTB. The road bike has rim brakes so the QR
strength doesn't really matter there. The black MTB QR will look odd on
it but, oh well.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/8/2016 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 11:30, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/8/2016 1:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 10:59, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-3-2016 om 19:09 schreef Joe Riel:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake
caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake
caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem
they probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and
cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back
of the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK
because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to
keep the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the
caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem
with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles
and reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction
just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough
to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the
lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know
for a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the
inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied
(I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with
external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with
internal
cams.



+1. The first thing I do is when I get a new bike or
wheels with
external cam QR is get rid of them and replace them with
simple Shimano
internal one. I have a whole drawer with external cam QR
by now. DT
swiss, Hope, Mavic all utter junk. The force you feel when
closing them
tells you nothing about the clamping force exerted.


Do you have a part number for the Shimano QR? I'd need one
with the utmost force, higher = better.

One concern I always have is those little threads on the nut
on the other side, that I might strip them out. But maybe
that isn't so critical?


Here's a current model Tacx:

http://www.labicicletta.com/media/ca...ase-skewer.jpg



Any QR of that style (from about 1930 to present) in any
brand. Oil cam,
go ride; they just work better.


Aha, thanks. That's the old style Shimano and I have those
on my road bike. Makes it easy, I can just swap'em. The road
bike has rim brakes so no concern about the axle coming out.
It should be happy with the MTB QR. Of course, the Shimano
purists would then say that I defiled the classic Shimano
600 equipment on my vintage road bike, grupo or whatever
they call that these days :-)


For those (and I am one) who obsess over small things,
these were best
for clamping leverage:

file:///C:/DOCUME~1/ADMINI~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/3826331350_2ff31a16ca_b.jpg


but god luck finding one now.


This tries to access your computer's hard drive which won't
work and I wouldn't do that anyhow :-)


As Mr Holtman and Mr Riel already mentioned, throw out
your QRs with
aluminum open cam. They suck.


Seems they sure do even after I oiled it and all. It simply
won't hold the front axle in place. By now the fork might be
too far worn inside the left drop-out though. It has about
3000 (hard) miles on it with the stock QR and I've gone
through 4-5 sets of brake pads in that time.


sorry I blew that. Yes it downloaded. Ooops, try this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/3826331350

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2016-03-08 12:15, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/8/2016 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-08 11:30, AMuzi wrote:

[...]

As Mr Holtman and Mr Riel already mentioned, throw out
your QRs with
aluminum open cam. They suck.


Seems they sure do even after I oiled it and all. It simply
won't hold the front axle in place. By now the fork might be
too far worn inside the left drop-out though. It has about
3000 (hard) miles on it with the stock QR and I've gone
through 4-5 sets of brake pads in that time.


sorry I blew that. Yes it downloaded. Ooops, try this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/3826331350


Thanks. That looks even more classic than the stuff on my early 80's
road bike.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHIMANO-600-...AOSwll1W1Xh Z

So if I understand correctly that would count as "the good stuff".

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/8/2016 1:59 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-3-2016 om 19:09 schreef Joe Riel:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-07 17:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-04 09:33, sms wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

But this does not solve the problem that the brake caliper is
in the wrong position for bikes with QR axles.

Ironically, there are BMX front forks with the brake caliper in
the front, but these don't have QR axles.

Since there are other ways of solving the problem they probably
saw no reason to move the caliper.


It hasn't been solved. There are still tons of MTB and cyclocross
bikes delivered with QR and with the caliper in back of the fork.

All of them have the caliper in back of the fork AFAIK because the
manufacturers don't want to rely on bolt tension to keep the caliper
attached to the fork. Bolts can break, and putting the caliper on
the front creates a different danger -- and the problem with wheel
ejection was solved ten years ago with through-axles and reshaped
front dropouts. The world is now safe. Amen.


The screws would be stressed mostly in sheer direction just like they
are now. With the forces at play here it would be tough to strip one
of those big screws.


-- Jay Beattie.

PS -- Google "James Annan" -- he's the man who blew the lid off BIG
DISK and disclosed the giant wheel ejection conspiracy.


All I found was some warmingist stuff. Anyhow, I know for a fact that
my MTB front axle tried to come out and has gouged the inside of the
left drop-out, big time. Despite the QR being real tied (I check that
often).

Do you have a decent quick-release? The ones with external cams
frequently exert much less clamping force than those with internal
cams.



+1. The first thing I do is when I get a new bike or wheels with
external cam QR is get rid of them and replace them with simple Shimano
internal one. I have a whole drawer with external cam QR by now. DT
swiss, Hope, Mavic all utter junk. The force you feel when closing them
tells you nothing about the clamping force exerted.

Another +1 here. And I agree with Andrew's advice to oil the cam, even
on the internal cam models. It's made a big difference for me in the past.


--
- Frank Krygowski