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#21
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Bike weight and climbing.
On 1/28/2021 3:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Lou Holtman writes: Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert: Roger Merriman writes: Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that power is the most important On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So in theory the Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the top-most power to weight bracket. (-: Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy propelling you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little bit on your speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is somewhere between 10 to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average" grade. Below that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg trumps. Axel That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains not so much. And then there is tactics. Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are winning is because they can sustain that power output over longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple physics? I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF. Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races. No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that to win the TdF you have: - to be in shape (duh), - able to recover quickly, - able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row, - handle the pressure, - able to ride a good time trial, - have a good team, - have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes, - good power to weight ratio. - etc. To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber. If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event, just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too perfectly. No rational man would have bet Roger Pingeon for the 1967 Tour. But after a series of catastrophes, he actually won. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#22
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Bike weight and climbing.
On 1/28/2021 4:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:59:04 -0500, Radey Shouman wrote: Lou Holtman writes: Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert: Roger Merriman writes: Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that power is the most important On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So in theory the Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the top-most power to weight bracket. (-: Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy propelling you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little bit on your speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is somewhere between 10 to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average" grade. Below that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg trumps. Axel That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains not so much. And then there is tactics. Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are winning is because they can sustain that power output over longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple physics? I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF. Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races. No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that to win the TdF you have: - to be in shape (duh), - able to recover quickly, - able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row, - handle the pressure, - able to ride a good time trial, - have a good team, - have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes, - good power to weight ratio. - etc. To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber. If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event, just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too perfectly. Actually you can bet on bicycle races. The Japanese Keirin bike races, for example, were developed in Japan around 1948 for gambling purposes. Yes, that's true but we were discussing T d'F: https://sports.ladbrokes.com/sport/c.../matches/today -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#23
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Bike weight and climbing.
On 1/28/2021 5:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 3:14:27 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote: John B. writes: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:59:04 -0500, Radey Shouman wrote: Lou Holtman writes: Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert: Roger Merriman writes: Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that power is the most important On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So in theory the Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the top-most power to weight bracket. (-: Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy propelling you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little bit on your speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is somewhere between 10 to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average" grade. Below that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg trumps. Axel That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains not so much. And then there is tactics. Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are winning is because they can sustain that power output over longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple physics? I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF. Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races. No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that to win the TdF you have: - to be in shape (duh), - able to recover quickly, - able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row, - handle the pressure, - able to ride a good time trial, - have a good team, - have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes, - good power to weight ratio. - etc. To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber. If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event, just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too perfectly. Actually you can bet on bicycle races. The Japanese Keirin bike races, for example, were developed in Japan around 1948 for gambling purposes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If people only bet on sure things gambling would hardly be a thing. He's trying to insult everyone's intelligence. Keirin racing is a multimillion dollar sport. So is le Tour. The television rights alone are gargantuan, world's largest spectator event. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#24
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Bike weight and climbing.
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 19:43:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/28/2021 4:55 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:59:04 -0500, Radey Shouman wrote: Lou Holtman writes: Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef : On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8, wrote: Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert: Roger Merriman writes: Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that power is the most important On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So in theory the Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the top-most power to weight bracket. (-: Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy propelling you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little bit on your speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is somewhere between 10 to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average" grade. Below that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg trumps. Axel That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains not so much. And then there is tactics. Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are winning is because they can sustain that power output over longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple physics? I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF. Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races. No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that to win the TdF you have: - to be in shape (duh), - able to recover quickly, - able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row, - handle the pressure, - able to ride a good time trial, - have a good team, - have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes, - good power to weight ratio. - etc. To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber. If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event, just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too perfectly. Actually you can bet on bicycle races. The Japanese Keirin bike races, for example, were developed in Japan around 1948 for gambling purposes. Yes, that's true but we were discussing T d'F: https://sports.ladbrokes.com/sport/c.../matches/today O.K. https://www.betandskill.com/how-to-b...our-de-france/ https://www.betonit.org/how-to-bet-o...dds-and-guide/ https://puntersport.com/bet-on-tour-de-france/ https://ecovelo.info/how-to-bet-on-the-tour-de-france/ :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
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