Thousands laugh as newbie replaces inner tube....

Patrick Lamb wrote:
On 18 Aug 2008 22:55:40 GMT, wrote:
You are incorrect on that subject as well. Inner tube material is
impervious to rubber cement so that no curing can take place with a
patch made of "bits of inner tube" besides that the skin of these
bits is difficult to remove to get rid of mold release that is
retained in the surface of tubes when they are manufactured.

How does rubber cement bond a patch to an inner tube that is
impervious to the cement? You're not making sense.

The permeable patches allow the excess solvent in the rubber cement to
evaporate; thus the patch will adhere if applied when the glue is still
too wet. With a relatively impervious patch, such as a piece of inner
tube, too wet cement would take a very long time to cure, as the only
pathway would be the narrow gap between the edge of the patch and the tube.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

On Aug 18, 4:56*pm, wrote:
Dan who? wrote:
*You've tried a "gazillion" types of patches, but not Rema?
I KNEW somebody was going to say that! *Actually, I don't think
I've ever looked at the brand on a package of patches, so chances
are I've got a pack of REMA's in my garage right now. *I've always
assumed they are all the same - except for the ones they sell at
Target and WalMart. *I did learn the hard way (after a major
manufacturer sent me a complimentary case of them) that those
glueless instant patches are pretty useless.
Anyway, I will make sure to carry a pack of REMA's in my saddle
bag from now on. *And if they don't work any better than what I've
been using, I'm coming after all of ya!
Presumably you do prepare the inner tube adequately? Roughening the
surface, getting rid of the flashing.
People have made patches from plain old spare bits of inner tube
work - REMA tiptop are much easier, but the techniques aren't that
different.
If I've got any doubts that the patch is going to stick, I clamp it
- seems to work quite well. Obviously I only do this when I'm
patching at leisure - on the road, it's a spare tube.
I'd say 95% of the patching I've done has been roadside, and they
patches rarely get longer than 5 minutes to set up. *Oddly enough,
I've got about a 95% success rate with my patches staying patched.
I always figured the pressure of the patch against the tire would
hold it in place. *Interesting to hear how many carry spare tubes
and only patch at home, where they can let it set up for extended
periods of time. *Doesn't rubber cement set in just a few minutes?

I'll bet your patches don't lie flat on an airless (flat) tube because
they have lifted from immediate use. *To assess this, cut through the
middle of a domed patch before throwing a tube away and you'll find it
lifted off up to the edge and was close to causing the classic slow
leak that is hard to find.

Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Considering I've got patches that
are literally years old and are not leaking, that were applied on the
side of the road (or more commonly trail) with only a few minutes
setup time, it seems a trivial detail to me. If they work, it's good
enough for me. I'm certainly not going to start carrying an extra
tube in a situation where I otherwise wouldn't to ensure that my patch
will sit flat on an uninflated tube - I only care if they hold air in
the tire, on the bike. They do that, so I'm happy.

Dan who? wrote:


Presumably you do prepare the inner tube adequately? Roughening
the surface, getting rid of the flashing.

People have made patches from plain old spare bits of inner tube
work - REMA tiptop are much easier, but the techniques aren't
that different.

If I've got any doubts that the patch is going to stick, I clamp
it - seems to work quite well. Obviously I only do this when I'm
patching at leisure - on the road, it's a spare tube.

I'd say 95% of the patching I've done has been roadside, and they
patches rarely get longer than 5 minutes to set up. Â*Oddly enough,
I've got about a 95% success rate with my patches staying patched.
I always figured the pressure of the patch against the tire would
hold it in place. Â*Interesting to hear how many carry spare tubes
and only patch at home, where they can let it set up for extended
periods of time. Â*Doesn't rubber cement set in just a few minutes?

I'll bet your patches don't lie flat on an airless (flat) tube
because they have lifted from immediate use. Â*To assess this, cut
through the middle of a domed patch before throwing a tube away and
you'll find it lifted off up to the edge and was close to causing
the classic slow leak that is hard to find.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Considering I've got patches that
are literally years old and are not leaking, that were applied on
the side of the road (or more commonly trail) with only a few
minutes setup time, it seems a trivial detail to me. If they work,
it's good enough for me. I'm certainly not going to start carrying
an extra tube in a situation where I otherwise wouldn't to ensure
that my patch will sit flat on an uninflated tube - I only care if
they hold air in the tire, on the bike. They do that, so I'm happy.

So? Have you examined the cross section of such a patch before
throwing an old tube away? I have done so on many patches on tubes
that people have brought to me with unexplained loss of air. Seeing
that patches were bulging on such tubes (when not inflated) made me
want to see what was under these "domes" and they were as I
suspected. partially lifted patches, some of which leaked a tiny
bubble at several second intervals.

As I mentioned, these patches had talcum powder (from inside the tube)
under them and had separated except at the edges. It is from such
analyses that I gave the matter some thought and wrote the items in
the FAQ so that others could benefit from my experience that started
with years of tubular tire repair and shifted to clinchers with butyl
tubes as they became the mainstay.

You may have seen the RR data that I analyzed in those days and
discovered why the differences followed the theory about tire tread,
traction and rolling resistance.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

I think you could analyze this yourself and discover the merits of
your patch technique but I don't expect any "mea culpa" here on
wreck.bike if you discover less than solid patches. That's your
business, and don't feel compelled to tell me I've got it all wrong,
as some contributors here do.

Jobst Brandt

Dan who? wrote:


Presumably you do prepare the inner tube adequately? Roughening
the surface, getting rid of the flashing.

People have made patches from plain old spare bits of inner tube
work - REMA tiptop are much easier, but the techniques aren't
that different.

If I've got any doubts that the patch is going to stick, I clamp
it - seems to work quite well. Obviously I only do this when I'm
patching at leisure - on the road, it's a spare tube.

I'd say 95% of the patching I've done has been roadside, and they
patches rarely get longer than 5 minutes to set up. Â*Oddly enough,
I've got about a 95% success rate with my patches staying patched.
I always figured the pressure of the patch against the tire would
hold it in place. Â*Interesting to hear how many carry spare tubes
and only patch at home, where they can let it set up for extended
periods of time. Â*Doesn't rubber cement set in just a few minutes?

I'll bet your patches don't lie flat on an airless (flat) tube
because they have lifted from immediate use. Â*To assess this, cut
through the middle of a domed patch before throwing a tube away and
you'll find it lifted off up to the edge and was close to causing
the classic slow leak that is hard to find.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Considering I've got patches that
are literally years old and are not leaking, that were applied on
the side of the road (or more commonly trail) with only a few
minutes setup time, it seems a trivial detail to me. If they work,
it's good enough for me. I'm certainly not going to start carrying
an extra tube in a situation where I otherwise wouldn't to ensure
that my patch will sit flat on an uninflated tube - I only care if
they hold air in the tire, on the bike. They do that, so I'm happy.

So? Have you examined the cross section of such a patch before
throwing an old tube away? I have done so on many patches on tubes
that people have brought to me with unexplained loss of air. Seeing
that patches were bulging on such tubes (when not inflated) made me
want to see what was under these "domes" and they were as I
suspected, partially lifted patches, some of which leaked a tiny
bubble at several second intervals.

As I mentioned, these patches had talcum powder (from inside the tube)
under them and had separated except at the edges. It is from such
analyses that I gave the matter some thought and wrote the items in
the FAQ so that others could benefit from my experience that started
with years of tubular tire repair and shifted to clinchers with butyl
tubes as they became the mainstay.

You may have seen the RR data that I analyzed in those days and
discovered why the differences followed the theory about tire tread,
traction and rolling resistance.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

I think you could analyze this yourself and discover the merits of
your patch technique but I don't expect any "mea culpa" here on
wreck.bike if you discover less than solid patches. That's your
business, and don't feel compelled to tell me I've got it all wrong,
as some contributors here do.

Jobst Brandt

On Aug 19, 12:53 pm, wrote:
Dan who? wrote:
Presumably you do prepare the inner tube adequately? Roughening
the surface, getting rid of the flashing.
People have made patches from plain old spare bits of inner tube
work - REMA tiptop are much easier, but the techniques aren't
that different.
If I've got any doubts that the patch is going to stick, I clamp
it - seems to work quite well. Obviously I only do this when I'm
patching at leisure - on the road, it's a spare tube.
I'd say 95% of the patching I've done has been roadside, and they
patches rarely get longer than 5 minutes to set up. Oddly enough,
I've got about a 95% success rate with my patches staying patched.
I always figured the pressure of the patch against the tire would
hold it in place. Interesting to hear how many carry spare tubes
and only patch at home, where they can let it set up for extended
periods of time. Doesn't rubber cement set in just a few minutes?
I'll bet your patches don't lie flat on an airless (flat) tube
because they have lifted from immediate use. To assess this, cut
through the middle of a domed patch before throwing a tube away and
you'll find it lifted off up to the edge and was close to causing
the classic slow leak that is hard to find.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Considering I've got patches that
are literally years old and are not leaking, that were applied on
the side of the road (or more commonly trail) with only a few
minutes setup time, it seems a trivial detail to me. If they work,
it's good enough for me. I'm certainly not going to start carrying
an extra tube in a situation where I otherwise wouldn't to ensure
that my patch will sit flat on an uninflated tube - I only care if
they hold air in the tire, on the bike. They do that, so I'm happy.

So? Have you examined the cross section of such a patch before
throwing an old tube away? I have done so on many patches on tubes
that people have brought to me with unexplained loss of air. Seeing
that patches were bulging on such tubes (when not inflated) made me
want to see what was under these "domes" and they were as I
suspected. partially lifted patches, some of which leaked a tiny
bubble at several second intervals.

No, I’ve never checked things out that carefully. If I were to find
that tubes I patched often ended up with slow leaks I may have, and
I’d certainly be checking into some old tubes now that I had something
to go on. However, since what I’ve been doing has been working just
fine for me, I don’t see a need for a change of technique. Carrying
extra tubes to patch any flats I may get seems to me a bit like an
answer to an unasked question – coming with the additional
inconvenience of taking up some of my precious little storage space.


As I mentioned, these patches had talcum powder (from inside the tube)
under them and had separated except at the edges. It is from such
analyses that I gave the matter some thought and wrote the items in
the FAQ so that others could benefit from my experience that started
with years of tubular tire repair and shifted to clinchers with butyl
tubes as they became the mainstay.

You may have seen the RR data that I analyzed in those days and
discovered why the differences followed the theory about tire tread,
traction and rolling resistance.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

I’ve read quite a bit of your stuff, mostly from Sheldon’s site. I
believe I’ve thanked you for your research and the sharing of it on
here as well.


I think you could analyze this yourself and discover the merits of
your patch technique

I very well may be able to, but as I said, it’d be an answer to an
unasked question. In my case it’s simply a matter of “If it ain’t
broke, don’t fix it. Especially if ‘fixing it’ would mean having to
carry more stuff around when you bicycle”.


but I don't expect any "mea culpa" here on
wreck.bike if you discover less than solid patches.

Why would I be saying “my fault”? “My mistake”, perhaps, but even
that seems inappropriate for this situation, since I didn’t accuse you
or your technique of being incorrect – I simply stated that what I’ve
been doing has worked for me, and continues to work for me.


That's your
business, and don't feel compelled to tell me I've got it all wrong,
as some contributors here do.

I don’t believe I’ve ever told you that “you’ve got it all wrong”.. In
fact, I have learned quite a bit from you over the years, and while I
may have asked questions to further my own understanding, I don’t
think I’ve ever questioned the accuracy of your research and
findings. Heck, I’ve been known to use your name in casual
conversation in regards to bicycle wheels, building, rolling
resistance, etc.

In this instance you seem to be offended or put off as though I’ve
suggested your patch method is hogwash. I am willing to believe that
your method of patching creates a better patch than mine – but if mine
is good enough, simpler, and requires me to carry less on a
recreational ride, why would I switch to yours? It’s not like I’m
going to die if one of my patches develops a slow leak someday – we’re
not talking about roll cages in racecars or motorcycle helmets here.