Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 23:28:40 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/3/2019 7:38 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Having lived in a number of developing countries I have observed a the
exact same pattern, or development, from walking to driving a car and
I suspect that it is human nature as the exact same thing happens
everywhere I've been. Walking to bicycling, bicycle to small
motorcycle, small motorcycle to large motorcycle, large motorcycle to
auto.

No body wants to walk if they can get a ride :-)

Until the developing country develops the typical problems with
automobiles. Traffic congestion. Cost and availability of parking. Cost
of insurance. Lack of mass transit infrastructure. Being able to take
advantage of bicycle infrastructure, including bikes on transit, with
essentially what is a limited-range motorcycle, can be extremely useful.

Generally developing countries initially have serviceable mass
transport systems. Usually buses. Crowded, hot and noisy but they do
get you to work in the morning and back home at night. A decade or two
later and we have subways and elevated railway systems. No longer hot
and noisy but even more crowded than the buses were :-)

Interestingly, although people bicycling to the morning market is so
common that no one comments on it I rarely see anyone bicycling to
work. On one of my Bangkok routes, about a 20 km loop that I rode
early in the morning, I used to see one guy obviously riding to work,
while the sidewalks and bus stops would be packed with people.

I suspect that it may be because the bulk of the people heading into
downtown Bangkok in the morning work in offices or perhaps shops where
clean neat clothing would be the norm and that would be hard to do on
a bicycle in a tropical country. And, of course, both the subway and
the elevated are much faster than a bicycle would be.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 23:28:40 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/3/2019 7:38 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Having lived in a number of developing countries I have observed a the
exact same pattern, or development, from walking to driving a car and
I suspect that it is human nature as the exact same thing happens
everywhere I've been. Walking to bicycling, bicycle to small
motorcycle, small motorcycle to large motorcycle, large motorcycle to
auto.

No body wants to walk if they can get a ride :-)

Until the developing country develops the typical problems with
automobiles. Traffic congestion. Cost and availability of parking. Cost
of insurance. Lack of mass transit infrastructure. Being able to take
advantage of bicycle infrastructure, including bikes on transit, with
essentially what is a limited-range motorcycle, can be extremely useful.

By the way, we have "motorcycle taxies" here now as the roads are so
congested. Generally they operate in the smaller streets and lanes
where people live and take folks back and forth to the
bus/subway/elevated stations. From the subway to my house is about 1
kilometer. Costs 10 baht, perhaps 25 cents in dollars.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 1:10:12 PM UTC, wrote:

When I would sit on the sidewalk on a nice day along a popular route about 7 out of 10 non road bikes or ATB bikes that pass are electric assisted. It is an epidemic here in the Netherlands. So to the question 'does E-bikes expand cycling?' Definitely!

Lou

I suspect that where the majority of the public already cycle, as in The Netherlands, or have an inclination to consider cycling as a moral good, as in California, e-bikes would expand the cycling uptake of that social segment, in your environment almost everyone, in Scharfie's those who consider themselves the moral leaders of society.

Neither of those apply in my milieu. Here people cycle for the exercise, or for the reason the peloton always cycled, that it is an affordable sport for workmen. There are also a handful poor people who cycle, and a few with temporary interdicts on their automobile driving license. It's a cross-section of society. But this little town once sustained three bicycle shops with attendant mechanics, and now there is only one, and if you have a bicycle that is at all sophisticated you'd better learn to do all required tasks on it yourself because a fellow from the blacksmith age of mechanics does €120 of damage simply by touching your bike (actual example), and it could be €1700 for a new spoked wheel with Rohloff HGB if you let him change the oil and he screws the plug in too far. I'm not joking: Once, exasperated, I showed him a torque wrench and he asked me what it does.

Andre Jute
Patience is a virtue only to the patient

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think..

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 04/11/2019 9:51 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

-- Jay Beattie.


I know, the price is ridiculous. But look at the other two. Both more
expensive and sold out.

On 11/4/2019 6:11 AM, Duane wrote:

Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

No, trying to _pretend_ to maintain their levels.

I'm not against "mechanical doping" for social rides, recreational
rides, extending one's range, etc. But if you're using a motor to
pretend you're younger and stronger, you're fooling only yourself.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/4/2019 1:43 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

I suspect that it may be because the bulk of the people heading into
downtown Bangkok in the morning work in offices or perhaps shops where
clean neat clothing would be the norm and that would be hard to do on
a bicycle in a tropical country. And, of course, both the subway and
the elevated are much faster than a bicycle would be.

Having gone to China numerous times over the past 32 years, the change
in commuting from bicycles to subways is amazing. There were buses 32
years ago, but they were slower than bicycling to work. There's some
resurgence in cycling thanks to the bike share bikes, but it's more for
"the first and last kilometer." People tend to not use their cars for
commuting in the big cities, but they all want a car for the weekends.

On 11/4/2019 6:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

I am most impressed with the Ampler eBikes. They no longer sell in the
U.S. due to restrictions on the shipment of lithium batteries. Still
costly, but nothing like $9K. Why would an e-Bike designer not want to
use all the otherwise wasted space inside the frame tubes for batteries?

https://amplerbikes.com/en/e-bikes

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:15:08 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 6:38:01 PM UTC, wrote:

A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

My thinking was that the wife would be getting all the gas money and you-know-who would be the one stuck biking to work, including our exceptionally difficult out-of-code 1/4 long hill back home...so I thought a motor assist at the end of a long work day might be nice. (It was still a no-fun zig-zag up the hill in 1st gear despite the motor.)

This is why I'm so keen on a motor with hefty torque.

Thanks for the link, which I've saved to read on my treadmill (I live in Ireland where it is often wet and cold in the winter).

Andre Jute
$A5 per gallon of petrol -- we should be so lucky!

If you need lots of torque, Lunacycles makes a 40T and even a 30T chainring for your Bafang.
Here's a link to one of their motor kits, scroll down and look on the right for chainring options.
If I ever try another motor, I think I'll go Bafang. Hopefully that won't be for years if ever. But there are *lots* of them out there to choose from.

pH

Here's the link.....
https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-1000w-middrive-kit/