RIP John Forester

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3

--
JS

On 4/23/2020 3:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3

Yeah, just saw that report earlier today. I had no idea that he was
related to C.S. Forester.

I received a copy of his manuscript before Effective Cycling was
published, sometime in the early 1980's. Reading it was like Richard
Feynman when he was on the California textbook selection committee and
his wife would hear him scream whenever he encountered something really
stupid in a book (the story is in his book, "Surely You're Joking Mr.
Feynman").

He had his opinions, but very little was fact-based. Loved the line in
that Forbes story "Despite never having ridden on any cycleways in the
Netherlands, Forester was heavily critical of Dutch cycleways, stating
them to be dangerous for cyclists." That was the essence of his
personality, pontificate on things that you have absolutely no knowledge
about.

Fortunately few states or municipalities paid any attention to his
rantings, including in Palo Alto. Ellen Fletcher, for whom Palo Alto's
Bryant Street Bike Boulevard is named, was far more effective in
promoting widespread bicycling in Palo Alto
https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2012/11/08/palo-altos-bicycle-pioneer-ellen-fletcher-dies.

"Despite the copious evidence that the separation of transport modes can
and does improve safety for cyclists, and encourages more people to
cycle, Forester remained adamant that providing cycleways was a
retrograde step for the health of cycling."

On 2020-04-23 15:45, sms wrote:
On 4/23/2020 3:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3


Yeah, just saw that report earlier today. I had no idea that he was
related to C.S. Forester.

I received a copy of his manuscript before Effective Cycling was
published, sometime in the early 1980's. Reading it was like Richard
Feynman when he was on the California textbook selection committee and
his wife would hear him scream whenever he encountered something really
stupid in a book (the story is in his book, "Surely You're Joking Mr.
Feynman").

He had his opinions, but very little was fact-based. Loved the line in
that Forbes story "Despite never having ridden on any cycleways in the
Netherlands, Forester was heavily critical of Dutch cycleways, stating
them to be dangerous for cyclists."


I lived in the Netherlands for six years, racked up about 6000mi on the
bike between the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. "Dangerous for
cyclists"? At least 30 years ago that was flat wrong. Their bike paths
were great and probably still are. I always dreaded crossing into
Germany where you'd either get spilled into a busy road or find a bike
path of sub-par quality.


... That was the essence of his
personality, pontificate on things that you have absolutely no knowledge
about.


I sometimes got that impression when reading.


Fortunately few states or municipalities paid any attention to his
rantings, including in Palo Alto. Ellen Fletcher, for whom Palo Alto's
Bryant Street Bike Boulevard is named, was far more effective in
promoting widespread bicycling in Palo Alto
https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2012/11/08/palo-altos-bicycle-pioneer-ellen-fletcher-dies.


Quote "Though Fletcher owned a car, a 1964 Plymouth Valiant, she was
famous for almost never using it". Alright! That's how it ought to be.

Considering that she favored anti-smoking laws she probably never smoked
yet got lung cancer. That's what city living can do.


"Despite the copious evidence that the separation of transport modes can
and does improve safety for cyclists, and encourages more people to
cycle, Forester remained adamant that providing cycleways was a
retrograde step for the health of cycling."


Thankfully, the municipal leadership around my area does not listen to
such stuff. They built some great bike paths. I just came back from a
44mi ride, around 95% of that on bike paths. It was great. Except for
the head wind on the way back.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/23/2020 4:27 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Thankfully, the municipal leadership around my area does not listen to
such stuff. They built some great bike paths. I just came back from a
44mi ride, around 95% of that on bike paths. It was great. Except for
the head wind on the way back.

See, that proves that cycle paths are bad. If you had been on the road
you would not have had any head wind.

On 4/23/2020 5:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3



He made our world better.
Vale, John Forester

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/23/2020 6:45 PM, sms wrote:
On 4/23/2020 3:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3

That was a disgusting hatchet job. Imagine how crude a person must be to
write what's essentially an obituary, and include an insult in the title!

He had his opinions, but very little was fact-based.

Bull****. He had copious data tables on car-bike crash types, specifics
on the exact mechanisms of the crashes, and much more. But we've seen
that Mr. Scharf AKA "sms" is very data-resistant.

Loved the line in
that Forbes story "Despite never having ridden on any cycleways in the
Netherlands, Forester was heavily critical of Dutch cycleways, stating
them to be dangerous for cyclists." That was the essence of his
personality, pontificate on things that you have absolutely no knowledge
about.

I'd be more inclined to believe Carlton Reid if he pointed to an exact
quote. Reid and Pucher (also quoted in the article) are among the
dreamers who pretend we can get - what? - 15%? 20%? - bike mode share in
America by building sidepaths. They and their allies (Lusk, Teschke,
etc.) have frequently lied in describing Forester's ideas, motivations
and achievements. Some have also published papers later shown to be
objectively false, with heavily biased data. And that crew consistently
ignore research papers that confirm Forester's warnings.


Fortunately few states or municipalities paid any attention to his
rantings, including in Palo Alto. Ellen Fletcher, for whom Palo Alto's
Bryant Street Bike Boulevard is named, was far more effective in
promoting widespread bicycling in Palo Alto
https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2012/11/08/palo-altos-bicycle-pioneer-ellen-fletcher-dies.

And that's an implied misrepresentation of Forester's objectives, a
misrepresentation that Reid, Pucher and others have used. Forester never
claimed his riding methods were intended to get lots of butts on bikes.
Instead, he contended that if a person does choose to bike, the methods
he espoused would prove to be the best - the most effective.

For example, Fletcher's tactic of building sidepaths (also promoted here
by Scharf AKA "sms" and Joerg) may work for those cyclists who have a
nice sidepath from their home to their destination - provided they don't
get creamed at an intersection or driveway. Forester's techniques were
intended to allow a cyclist to ride _anywhere_ within reason, to get to
_any_ reasonable destination, and do so in safety at reasonable speed,
using normal roadways. His techniques simply _work_.

Without Forester's instruction, I doubt I'd have been able to ride as I
did - commuting to work for 40 years, doing utility riding for shopping
and visiting friends, riding for fun in cities, suburbs and country
roads, traveling and touring by bike in this country and others, and
riding coast to coast across the U.S.

If I waited for sidepaths and bike trails before doing those things, I'd
still be waiting.

"Despite the copious evidence that the separation of transport modes can
and does improve safety for cyclists, and encourages more people to
cycle, Forester remained adamant that providing cycleways was a
retrograde step for the health of cycling."

In a way, he's right. One big side effect of "cycleways" has been to
"dangerize" ordinary cycling in the minds of most people.

Example: Just this evening I was talking to a woman I've known a long
time. She and her husband live in a distant city. She says they haven't
been able to ride their bikes because the bike trails are too crowded.

I said "Why not do what we did today? We just got back from a 27 mile
ride, and we didn't use a single bike trail!"

Her response? "Well, my husband is too nervous about riding on regular
streets. He's only comfortable on trails."

So it's an example of the trail propaganda hurting cycling here and now.
In his mind, bikes are only for trails.

Fortunately, we've been able - SO far - to prevent most governments from
taking away our rights to the road. That was what originally got
Forester active. In his later years, he said that was still the most
important thing.

About Forester: In his writing (not one-on-one in person) he was often
difficult, undiplomatic, longwinded, intolerant. That was regrettable,
because he could have achieved more with better behavior. But he was
also brilliant, groundbreaking and very important for cycling.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 4/23/2020 3:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3

That was a disgusting hatchet job. Imagine how crude a person must be to
write what's essentially an obituary, and include an insult in the title!

And editor's pick? FY, Forbes; and of course, FOAD, Carlton Reid!

On 4/23/2020 4:27 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Thankfully, the municipal leadership around my area does not listen to
such stuff. They built some great bike paths. I just came back from a
44mi ride, around 95% of that on bike paths. It was great. Except for
the head wind on the way back.

Forester did succeed in getting rid of the mandatory bicycle path law in
Palo Alto. Reid could have at least mentioned that.

Forester was initially a proponent of "bicycle boulevards," like the one
on Bryant Street in Palo Alto. Later he changed his position and was
against them.

The huge success of Palo Alto's cross-town bicycle boulevard, which
encouraged more residents to use bicycles instead of cars to get around
Palo Alto, was instrumental in changing his position from "support" to
"oppose." I can understand why this apparent huge success for cycling
would end up being opposed by Forester after he initially supported it.
I ride on that Bicycle Boulevard fairly often and it is now heavily used
by recreational and transportational cyclists, including children, and
can resemble separate bicycle infrastructure in terms of the volume of
cyclists, even though it's on a suburban street. The parallel arterial
roads to the bicycle boulevard, Alma Street and Middlefield Road (where
Forester was cited) may be okay for "Vehicular Cyclists" but they have
little to no shoulder for a lot of their length, and you have to "take
the lane." With the bicycle boulevard alternative available, very few
cyclists choose to use those two arterials.

Also not mentioned was that Forester was instrumental in helping
bicycling advocate Ellen Fletcher get elected to the Palo Alto City
Council, though it was probably not intentional: "Ellen Fletcher, once
the top bike activist in the world, was becoming the most popular
politician in Palo Alto because people there had grown weary of John
Forester’s machismo approach to cycling."
https://bikeroute.com/NationalBicycleGreenwayNews/2018/03/04/why-nbg-anchor-cities-can-finally-feature-dedicated-bike-lanes-as-a-way-to-connect-the-coasts/.

Palo Alto's approach, advocated by Fletcher, of encouraging more
bicycling by building more bicycle infrastructure spread to other cities
in the Bay Area and California, so Forester was indirectly responsible
for a lot of new infrastructure and the increase in the numbers of
cyclists─probably not something that he would want to be remembered for.
He even admitted in an interview that at best he had delayed the
construction of new bicycle infrastructure.

On 2020-04-24 13:52, sms wrote:
On 4/23/2020 4:27 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Thankfully, the municipal leadership around my area does not listen to
such stuff. They built some great bike paths. I just came back from a
44mi ride, around 95% of that on bike paths. It was great. Except for
the head wind on the way back.

Forester did succeed in getting rid of the mandatory bicycle path law in
Palo Alto. Reid could have at least mentioned that.


We are lucky. Many municipalities here such as Folsom didn't listen and
have rules that if you put in a new develoment you must build cycling
infrastructure. No bike paths, no permits. This will soon result in an
almost seamless connection of my favorite longhaul MTB singletrack to
the American River bike path system. By the end of this month it will
also result in a more direct bike path connection from here to Costco,
the Kaiser clinic, Home Depot, Bevmo, and so on, avoiding a nasty hill.
That's 3h round trip but if you can free that time it will then become a
nice trip, and healthy.


Forester was initially a proponent of "bicycle boulevards," like the one
on Bryant Street in Palo Alto. Later he changed his position and was
against them.

The huge success of Palo Alto's cross-town bicycle boulevard, which
encouraged more residents to use bicycles instead of cars to get around
Palo Alto, was instrumental in changing his position from "support" to
"oppose." I can understand why this apparent huge success for cycling
would end up being opposed by Forester after he initially supported it.
I ride on that Bicycle Boulevard fairly often and it is now heavily used
by recreational and transportational cyclists, including children, and
can resemble separate bicycle infrastructure in terms of the volume of
cyclists, even though it's on a suburban street. The parallel arterial
roads to the bicycle boulevard, Alma Street and Middlefield Road (where
Forester was cited) may be okay for "Vehicular Cyclists" but they have
little to no shoulder for a lot of their length, and you have to "take
the lane." With the bicycle boulevard alternative available, very few
cyclists choose to use those two arterials.

Also not mentioned was that Forester was instrumental in helping
bicycling advocate Ellen Fletcher get elected to the Palo Alto City
Council, though it was probably not intentional: "Ellen Fletcher, once
the top bike activist in the world, was becoming the most popular
politician in Palo Alto because people there had grown weary of John
Forester’s machismo approach to cycling."
https://bikeroute.com/NationalBicycleGreenwayNews/2018/03/04/why-nbg-anchor-cities-can-finally-feature-dedicated-bike-lanes-as-a-way-to-connect-the-coasts/.


Main thing is, she got in. Must have been a remarkable woman.


Palo Alto's approach, advocated by Fletcher, of encouraging more
bicycling by building more bicycle infrastructure spread to other cities
in the Bay Area and California, so Forester was indirectly responsible
for a lot of new infrastructure and the increase in the numbers of
cyclists─probably not something that he would want to be remembered for.
He even admitted in an interview that at best he had delayed the
construction of new bicycle infrastructure.


That's sad. This was before my time in the US but if John seriously
delayed the bike path movement that may in part be a reason why, for
example, the Netherlands has a bike modal share almost an order of
magnitude larger than the US. I lived there and, to some extent, they
have or at least had 30 years ago similar (stupid) zoning laws as we
have them here in the US. Maybe not quite as extreme but where you have
large residential areas with hardly any shops so people have to make
trip to go buy stuff or visit a good restaurant. The big difference: A
fantastic bike path network. So almost everybody I knew would not even
think twice about using the bike for a 5mi or 10mi trip. They'd just do it.

I had to clock many more miles on the road bike than while living in
Germany for the same kind of errands. Yet I gladly did that because
their bike paths were so great and made for refreshing rides.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, 24 April 2020 17:20:40 UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-04-24 13:52, sms wrote:
On 4/23/2020 4:27 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Thankfully, the municipal leadership around my area does not listen to
such stuff. They built some great bike paths. I just came back from a
44mi ride, around 95% of that on bike paths. It was great. Except for
the head wind on the way back.

Forester did succeed in getting rid of the mandatory bicycle path law in
Palo Alto. Reid could have at least mentioned that.


We are lucky. Many municipalities here such as Folsom didn't listen and
have rules that if you put in a new develoment you must build cycling
infrastructure. No bike paths, no permits. This will soon result in an
almost seamless connection of my favorite longhaul MTB singletrack to
the American River bike path system. By the end of this month it will
also result in a more direct bike path connection from here to Costco,
the Kaiser clinic, Home Depot, Bevmo, and so on, avoiding a nasty hill.
That's 3h round trip but if you can free that time it will then become a
nice trip, and healthy.


Forester was initially a proponent of "bicycle boulevards," like the one
on Bryant Street in Palo Alto. Later he changed his position and was
against them.

The huge success of Palo Alto's cross-town bicycle boulevard, which
encouraged more residents to use bicycles instead of cars to get around
Palo Alto, was instrumental in changing his position from "support" to
"oppose." I can understand why this apparent huge success for cycling
would end up being opposed by Forester after he initially supported it.
I ride on that Bicycle Boulevard fairly often and it is now heavily used
by recreational and transportational cyclists, including children, and
can resemble separate bicycle infrastructure in terms of the volume of
cyclists, even though it's on a suburban street. The parallel arterial
roads to the bicycle boulevard, Alma Street and Middlefield Road (where
Forester was cited) may be okay for "Vehicular Cyclists" but they have
little to no shoulder for a lot of their length, and you have to "take
the lane." With the bicycle boulevard alternative available, very few
cyclists choose to use those two arterials.

Also not mentioned was that Forester was instrumental in helping
bicycling advocate Ellen Fletcher get elected to the Palo Alto City
Council, though it was probably not intentional: "Ellen Fletcher, once
the top bike activist in the world, was becoming the most popular
politician in Palo Alto because people there had grown weary of John
Forester’s machismo approach to cycling."
https://bikeroute.com/NationalBicycleGreenwayNews/2018/03/04/why-nbg-anchor-cities-can-finally-feature-dedicated-bike-lanes-as-a-way-to-connect-the-coasts/.


Main thing is, she got in. Must have been a remarkable woman.


Palo Alto's approach, advocated by Fletcher, of encouraging more
bicycling by building more bicycle infrastructure spread to other cities
in the Bay Area and California, so Forester was indirectly responsible
for a lot of new infrastructure and the increase in the numbers of
cyclists─probably not something that he would want to be remembered for.
He even admitted in an interview that at best he had delayed the
construction of new bicycle infrastructure.


That's sad. This was before my time in the US but if John seriously
delayed the bike path movement that may in part be a reason why, for
example, the Netherlands has a bike modal share almost an order of
magnitude larger than the US. I lived there and, to some extent, they
have or at least had 30 years ago similar (stupid) zoning laws as we
have them here in the US. Maybe not quite as extreme but where you have
large residential areas with hardly any shops so people have to make
trip to go buy stuff or visit a good restaurant. The big difference: A
fantastic bike path network. So almost everybody I knew would not even
think twice about using the bike for a 5mi or 10mi trip. They'd just do it.