Campagnolo Electronic

Anyone know the latest on this?
Last I heard was from early spring where Campy was doing some on-road
development. Have they hit some snags?
I had understood they were to release this kit this year, but now looks to
be delayed.

"Bob De Jonge" wrote in message
...
Anyone know the latest on this?
Last I heard was from early spring where Campy was doing some on-road
development. Have they hit some snags?
I had understood they were to release this kit this year, but now looks to
be delayed.


A possible snag being that it will be hideously expensive and offer no real
functional benefits. A message to component makers: bicycle drivetrains
with a bunch of exposed front and rear cogs (with electronic shifting or
otherwise) is a dead-end. Derailleur-based gearing systems are fragile,
attract dirt, wear out rapidly (especially chains) and are complex to set-up
and then maintain the indexing. You would think we would have made progress
beyond the great Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub of the 1930's.

If someone develops an efficient internally geared rear hub with about 10-15
gear choices, and it comes within 200 grams of a derailleur drivetrain, then
I'll be impressed. And then I will buy.

Dave Mayer wrote:

A possible snag being that it will be hideously expensive and offer no real
functional benefits. A message to component makers: bicycle drivetrains
with a bunch of exposed front and rear cogs (with electronic shifting or
otherwise) is a dead-end. Derailleur-based gearing systems are fragile,
attract dirt, wear out rapidly (especially chains) and are complex to set-up
and then maintain the indexing.

Especially in the section of the market where Campagnolo is this is
definitely not true. High-quality derailer systems are not too fragile,
or at least I'm not seeing many broken derailers, chains or cogs. I'm
sure for example downhill mountain biking is different, but they still
use predominantly derailer gearing.

I get between 3000 to 5000 miles from a chain on a Campagnolo drivetrain
before excessive wear, and most people would not consider that rapid.
I always found setting up pretty easy and it requires basically no
maintenance. In fact the only adjustment you CAN do after the initial
(correct) setup is fine adjusting the cable length, but good cables
don't stretch much.

If someone develops an efficient internally geared rear hub with about 10-15
gear choices, and it comes within 200 grams of a derailleur drivetrain, then
I'll be impressed. And then I will buy.

The 14-speed Rohloff hub is within 200 grams of many derailleur
drivetrains, and in any case the weight difference is so small that it
doesn't make any difference. It's also efficient enough for most uses
and is indeed an impressive piece of equipment. What are you waiting for?

-as

In article ,
Antti Salonen wrote:

Dave Mayer wrote:

A possible snag being that it will be hideously expensive and offer no real
functional benefits. A message to component makers: bicycle drivetrains
with a bunch of exposed front and rear cogs (with electronic shifting or
otherwise) is a dead-end. Derailleur-based gearing systems are fragile,
attract dirt, wear out rapidly (especially chains) and are complex to
set-up
and then maintain the indexing.

Especially in the section of the market where Campagnolo is this is
definitely not true. High-quality derailer systems are not too fragile,
or at least I'm not seeing many broken derailers, chains or cogs. I'm
sure for example downhill mountain biking is different, but they still
use predominantly derailer gearing.

Like Dave, I'm baffled by the purpose of Campy's electric shifters. I'm
impressed by the technology, and I have previously suggested possible
advantages to electronic shifting (two-button sequential shifting,
dynamically self-adjusting shifting, maybe even automatic shifting), but
I'm doubtful that making shifting more complex and adding a mandatory
battery to the drivetrain just isn't right.

I get between 3000 to 5000 miles from a chain on a Campagnolo drivetrain
before excessive wear, and most people would not consider that rapid.
I always found setting up pretty easy and it requires basically no
maintenance. In fact the only adjustment you CAN do after the initial
(correct) setup is fine adjusting the cable length, but good cables
don't stretch much.

There's a lot to be said for derailer drivetrains, especially on bikes
for racing, fast riding, or weekend warriordom, but in terms of
practical machinery, I agree with Dave's implicit feeling that hub gears
(and enclosed chains) make a lot of sense, but traditional 3-speeds are
not quite enough. More below.

If someone develops an efficient internally geared rear hub with about
10-15
gear choices, and it comes within 200 grams of a derailleur drivetrain,
then
I'll be impressed. And then I will buy.

The 14-speed Rohloff hub is within 200 grams of many derailleur
drivetrains, and in any case the weight difference is so small that it
doesn't make any difference. It's also efficient enough for most uses
and is indeed an impressive piece of equipment. What are you waiting for?

Knowing Dave, a thriving market on eBay . More seriously, Rohloff hub
drives compare well with new complete high-end derailer drivetrains, but
at a notable weight penalty and a certain efficiency penalty. More
worryingly, there's basically no used-Rohloff market, while used or
OEM-surplus derailer drivetrains are available very cheaply, which is
nice.

Since a new Rohloff hub alone would cost substantially more than the
entire price of my carefully-crafted (and race-winning) race bike, it is
a very hard sell.

I think the real deal, long term, will probably be the Shimano Nexus 8,
which has a reasonable range of gears and reasonable performance for
less than one third the price of a Rohloff. The old 7-speed version is
slightly cheaper again.

for the US$250 the primo hub (plus shifter) would set you back, I could
make a pretty nifty US$300 super-commuter: take a road frame with
horizontal dropouts, add Nexus 8 and chainguard, budget for fenders and
a front dual-pivot brake with good pads. Yes, I can probably find an
appropriate base bike for $10. Little maintenance, not too much money,
fairly light, and way cool.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff.html
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/shimano-nexus.html

The SRAM Spectro 7 is also nice, but a bit more than a Nexus 7 and a bit
less than a Nexus 8:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sram.html

That said, this putative super-commuter is competing with the near-free
lightly-used old road bikes that are thick on the ground most places.
You have to really like cleanliness, low maintenance, and unfussy
shifting to pay the premium for a hub-shifting bike.

Maybe next year,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Like Dave, I'm baffled by the purpose of Campy's electric shifters. I'm
impressed by the technology, and I have previously suggested possible
advantages to electronic shifting (two-button sequential shifting,
dynamically self-adjusting shifting, maybe even automatic shifting), but
I'm doubtful that making shifting more complex and adding a mandatory
battery to the drivetrain just isn't right.

I have a modern Campagnolo drivetrain on both of my bikes and I don't
think there can be any real improvement on the way it works. I'm not
sure what you mean by sequential shifting, but Campagnolo levers already
allow changing multiple gears with a single press of the lever of the
button.

The only concrete improvement I can think of is automatic fine
adjustment of the front derailer when you change to a different cog in
the rear. I'd be willing to pay $20 for this, but not the $2000 that
the electronic drivetrain is likely going to cost.

Actually I do agree that derailer shifting is a dead-end in the sense
that there's not much that can be done to make it any better. But that
doesn't mean it's not going to remain the best choice for many applications.

There's a lot to be said for derailer drivetrains, especially on bikes
for racing, fast riding, or weekend warriordom, but in terms of
practical machinery, I agree with Dave's implicit feeling that hub gears
(and enclosed chains) make a lot of sense, but traditional 3-speeds are
not quite enough. More below.

I would agree that internal gear hubs don't have the market share they
probably deserve. Most bikes with cheap derailer drivetrains would
be better off with a decent internal gear hub.

-as

Didn't Mavic also experiment with electronic derailleurs? I remember the bikes
on the neutral service cars, during the (now defunct) Trans Canada Tour back in
1999, had Mavic electronic derailleurs on them.





J. Spaceman


--
My email address ) is fake. Email sent to it
will only get caught in my spam tarpit.

Thanks for the comments all --- I guess nobody out there knows the
status either.

OK - I'll get drawn in by the trollers -----
on the chain wear comment -- I'm sorry, but 5000 miles on a chain is
poor. I am assuming road riding - I can understand off-road would
shorten a chain's lifespan.
I get ~15,000 miles from my chains. If I get 10,000 or less, I'm
disappointed. I'll tell you my secret, and its not a secret at all --
chainwax. I wax my chain about every 500mi, and with the powerlink
chains now, it's easier than ever. I make a homebrew, as it has been
over 5 years since I could find it in any stores. But, paraffin + PTFE
powder + a tiny bit of slick50 does very well. I log every ride, every
bit of maintenance, so I have 20 years of data.
Anyway - you should be able to get well over 10,000 miles from a chain
on a road bike.

Now, electronic shifting - I was just curious on their progress, that's
all. I understand your point of view in that it wouldn't seem to offer
any advantages. But, I'm into product development, and besides -- I
HATE all those cables sprouting from everywhere on those bars these
days. I still use downtube shifters, which perform much better, and
leaves me a very clean cockpit. In my opinion, the current multi-use
brake levers were a step backwards -- much the same way you see the
electronic shifting development. I feel the early 90's were the
cleanest so far, and maybe the new development will go back to that
clean package.
So, we all have different points of view.
And, yes, Mavic did make 2 versions of an electronic system - the ZAP
8-speed that came out in the mid-90's, and the Mektronic 9-speed that
came out maybe 5 years later. I've got both, and love them. I have the
ZAP on my Lotus TT bike -- of course, gotta keep it original to the
Boardman build!!!! I even crashed on it once -- smashed the cover on
the derailleur, but it still worked!!! and it got me home to my road
rash kit just fine!!!! Anyway, I've since stocked up on my ZAP parts
and should be good for life now.
The wireless development in the Mektronic opened up another whole area
for various products. I will say the huge rear mech is something I
still struggle with. I love the ZAP rear - much nicer package. But,
the wireless and de-centralized power storage is an advantage for the
Mektronic.

Anyway, I had heard bits & pieces about the Campy, and how they were
doing a powered front as well, so I continue to be curious about design
cues, packaging, kinematics, execution, etc. etc.

Anyway - flame away!!!!
And get some chainwax!!!!

Bob De Jonge wrote:
Anyone know the latest on this?
Last I heard was from early spring where Campy was doing some on-road
development. Have they hit some snags?
I had understood they were to release this kit this year, but now looks to
be delayed.

Seems to be working in the prototype stage. One 'snag' was the high
power requirements of the front der. It is kinda keen as the front der
moves on it's own when the chain goes to larger cogs, automatically
keeping the chain from rubbing, and is electronic when whifting between
rings. Gonna be VERY pricey if they make it, which is still a question.
May see it in Milano in the September bicycle show.

Thanks Peter -- will be watching for news. I was curious about the
front der as well, and how they're doing the rear movement. Mavic's
method for moving the rear was/is very unique.
Bob

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Bob De Jonge wrote:

Anyone know the latest on this?
Last I heard was from early spring where Campy was doing some on-road
development. Have they hit some snags?
I had understood they were to release this kit this year, but now looks to
be delayed.


Seems to be working in the prototype stage. One 'snag' was the high
power requirements of the front der. It is kinda keen as the front der
moves on it's own when the chain goes to larger cogs, automatically
keeping the chain from rubbing, and is electronic when whifting between
rings. Gonna be VERY pricey if they make it, which is still a question.
May see it in Milano in the September bicycle show.

Bob De Jonge wrote:
Thanks for the comments all --- I guess nobody out there knows the
status either.

The status is that they've been working on it for at least a few years
and that it's still in testing. There is no projected date of release.

There was a writeup on Cyclingnews around the time of Paris-Roubaix
because somebody or other rode the drivetrain there. That may be the
highest profile test so far, so it also may be why it seems like it's on
the verge of retail.

-eric