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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park



 
 
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  #91  
Old August 5th 20, 11:08 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park

On 05/08/2020 22:01, Pamela wrote:
On 20:07 5 Aug 2020, TMS320 said:

On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote:
On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote:
On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote:
On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote:

If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is
raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the
wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its
stability? Does it:

(a) decrease stability, or

(b) increase stability, or

(c) have no effect on stability?

You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over
one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask
"are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should
be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation.

You claim a). Now show your working.

There we have it.

Where? There is no working.

You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of
rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will
not decrease that person's stability.

Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your
meaning is plain enough.

Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue.

You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect
stability.

Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear.

I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your
working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know
there is more to science than stripping wires.

Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that
a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle -
even clearer.


(That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.)

Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects
stability".

It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently
unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn
the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia
are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when
masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it
might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A
human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time.

A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two
as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket
takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly
changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more
or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good
enough to keep it pointing up.


In other words, a shifting rucksack packed with groceries will destabilise
a cyclist. If it is more than he can compensate for then he will fall
off. Q.E.D.


It would. Just as it would for someone walking or running. People also
fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step.
But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done
up properly.

Ads
  #92  
Old August 6th 20, 09:23 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park

On 05/08/2020 22:00, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:

I agree, I much prefer carrying loads in panniers; apart from that a
sweaty back is uncomfortable, IME, but each to their own.


I also use panniers routinely. Sometimes a backpack is needed.

Seems little point in arguing over it.


Non-cyclists without a clue?
  #93  
Old August 6th 20, 10:23 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Mason[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,244
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
People also
fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step.
But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done
up properly.


That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will not shift.
  #94  
Old August 6th 20, 12:06 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park

On 06/08/2020 10:23, Simon Mason wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:

People also fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery
surface or a step. But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make
sure the straps are done up properly.


That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will
not shift.


I once rode with one of my children's school bags that only had one
diagonal shoulder strap. That was irritating because it kept trying to
slide round my body. When walking I use a bag with a chest strap to pull
the two shoulder straps together to reduce gait induced swing.

The only problem with heavy loads on a bike is that the weight makes
handling and the process of getting on the bike awkward. When it's
working as a bike, the forces make the loads stay in the plane of the
bike (like an aeroplane, not a car). Nothing shifts.

  #95  
Old August 6th 20, 02:05 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Pamela
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 552
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park

On 10:23 6 Aug 2020, Simon Mason said:

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:

People also
fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step.
But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are
done up properly.


That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will not
shift.


Maybe that works for a tins of Carlsberg and frozen fish fingers but any soft
groceries would get crushed by tight straps.
  #96  
Old August 6th 20, 02:05 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park

On 05/08/2020 20:41, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 20:21, JNugent wrote:
On 05/08/2020 20:07, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote:
On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote:
On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote:
On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote:

If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider
is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the
wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on
its stability? Does it:

(a) decrease stability, or

(b) increase stability, or

(c) have no effect on stability?

You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises
over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you
then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer
you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation.

You claim a). Now show your working.

There we have it.

Where? There is no working.

You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of
rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity
will not decrease that person's stability.
Â*
Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your
meaning is plain enough.

Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue.

You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not
affect stability.
Â*
Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear.

I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started
your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You
should know there is more to science than stripping wires.

Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting
that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a
bicycle - even clearer.

(That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.)

Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it
"affects stability".


A raised centre of gravity affects stability adversely, if that's what
you prefer.

A lwer or lowered centre of gravity improves stability.

It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently
unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism.
Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of
inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo.
Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person
riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals
don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for
next time.

A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not
two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a
rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are
constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket
becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo
mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up.


How interesting.

Do you still dispute that raising the centre of gravity of a person on
a bicycle will adversely affect (or "worsen") the stability of that
person on the bike?

Your answer will suffice in the form of a "Yes" or a "No".


Keep your mind tightly closed if you insist.


I shan't take that as either a "Yes" or a "No".

I'll take it as an "I don't dare answer for fear of looking even siller".
  #97  
Old August 6th 20, 02:08 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park

On 05/08/2020 22:00, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 19:21:09 GMT, JNugent
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 20:07, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote:
On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote:
On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote:
On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote:

[]

A lwer or lowered centre of gravity improves stability.


I agree,


Thank you.

TMS320 doesn't agree, though.

I much prefer carrying loads in panniers;


Yes, I can see the advantages in that.

apart from that a
sweaty back is uncomfortable, IME, but each to their own.

Seems little point in arguing over it.


I didn't expect anyone to dispute that a raised centre of gravity
increases instability / decreases stability.

But there's always one.

Let's get try discussing momentum.


Extra mass = extra momentum?

That computes.
  #98  
Old August 6th 20, 02:09 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park

On 06/08/2020 09:23, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 22:00, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:

I agree, I much prefer carrying loads in panniers; apart from that a
sweaty back is uncomfortable, IME, but each to their own.


I also use panniers routinely. Sometimes a backpack is needed.

Seems little point in arguing over it.


Non-cyclists without a clue?


It seems that it is a confirmed cyclist who doesn't believe that raising
the centre of gravity decreases stability.
  #99  
Old August 6th 20, 02:11 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park

On 05/08/2020 23:08, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 22:01, Pamela wrote:
On 20:07Â* 5 Aug 2020, TMS320 said:

On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote:
On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote:
On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote:
On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote:
On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote:

If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is
raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the
wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its
stability? Does it:

(a) decrease stability, or

(b) increase stability, or

(c) have no effect on stability?

You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over
one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask
"are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should
be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation.

You claim a). Now show your working.

There we have it.

Where? There is no working.

You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of
rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will
not decrease that person's stability.

Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your
meaning is plain enough.

Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue.

You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect
stability.

Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear.

I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your
working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know
there is more to science than stripping wires.

Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that
a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle -
even clearer.

(That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.)

Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects
stability".

It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently
unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn
the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia
are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when
masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it
might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A
human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time.

A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two
as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket
takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly
changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more
or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good
enough to keep it pointing up.


In other words, a shifting rucksack packed with groceries will
destabilise
a cyclist.Â* If it is more than he can compensate for then he will fall
off.Â* Q.E.D.


It would.


By George...

Just as it would for someone walking or running. People also
fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step.
But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done
up properly.


What made you change your mind and start accepting the basic rules of
physics as taught to us in the first year at grammar school?
  #100  
Old August 6th 20, 02:12 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park

On 06/08/2020 10:23, Simon Mason wrote:

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 11:08:06 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
People also
fall over when they can't compensate for a slippery surface or a step.
But if you're carrying a bag on your back, make sure the straps are done
up properly.


That's the key. If the straps are tight to your chest, the load will not shift.


But your centre of gravity is still higher than it would be without the
back-pack, so this later "do the straps up tight" wriggle doesn't work.
 




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