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#81
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 6:08:03 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
Concerning the produce. Don't put them in a shopping bag and then stuff that bag inside a backpack. That action would do a lot of damage. Put items in the pack individually, soft stuff at the top. There is some shift when the pack is put on the back but there is no shift while riding. The end result can't be worse than walking. Walking is likely to worse because there is more motion and more steps have to be taken. Never had squashed tomatos. Plus, never go round a sharp bend in a top heavy 4x4 with a heavy load. QUOTE: A decade or so ago nobody would be surprised to see an F series pickup or a big honking SUV lying on its side after tipping over. When you don’t compensate for a top heavy load and big gaping clearances you are setting the stage for a roll bar field test. ENDS Top 10 cars for tipping over: https://autowise.com/top-10-trucks-a...y-to-tip-over/ |
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#82
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park
On 18:42 5 Aug 2020, Simon Mason said:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 6:08:03 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote: Concerning the produce. Don't put them in a shopping bag and then stuff that bag inside a backpack. That action would do a lot of damage. Put items in the pack individually, soft stuff at the top. There is some shift when the pack is put on the back but there is no shift while riding. The end result can't be worse than walking. Walking is likely to worse because there is more motion and more steps have to be taken. Never had squashed tomatos. Plus, never go round a sharp bend in a top heavy 4x4 with a heavy load. QUOTE: A decade or so ago nobody would be surprised to see an F series pickup or a big honking SUV lying on its side after tipping over. When you don't compensate for a top heavy load and big gaping clearances you are setting the stage for a roll bar field test. ENDS Top 10 cars for tipping over: https://autowise.com/top-10-trucks-a...y-to-tip-over/ The same physics applies to bikes. Thanks for the reminder. |
#83
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote:
On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its stability? Does it: (a) decrease stability, or (b) increase stability, or (c) have no effect on stability? You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation. You claim a). Now show your working. There we have it. Where? There is no working. You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will not decrease that person's stability. Â* Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your meaning is plain enough. Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue. You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect stability. Â* Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear. I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know there is more to science than stripping wires. Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle - even clearer. (That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.) Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects stability". It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time. A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up. |
#84
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 18:57, Pamela wrote:
On 18:42 5 Aug 2020, Simon Mason said: On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 6:08:03 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote: Concerning the produce. Don't put them in a shopping bag and then stuff that bag inside a backpack. That action would do a lot of damage. Put items in the pack individually, soft stuff at the top. There is some shift when the pack is put on the back but there is no shift while riding. The end result can't be worse than walking. Walking is likely to worse because there is more motion and more steps have to be taken. Never had squashed tomatos. Plus, never go round a sharp bend in a top heavy 4x4 with a heavy load. QUOTE: A decade or so ago nobody would be surprised to see an F series pickup or a big honking SUV lying on its side after tipping over. When you don't compensate for a top heavy load and big gaping clearances you are setting the stage for a roll bar field test. ENDS Top 10 cars for tipping over: https://autowise.com/top-10-trucks-a...y-to-tip-over/ The same physics applies to bikes. Thanks for the reminder. Hook, line and sinker |
#85
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 18:08, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 14:18, Pamela wrote: On 23:35Â* 4 Aug 2020, TMS320 said: On 01/08/2020 20:05, Simon Mason wrote: On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 7:37:14 PM UTC+1, Pamela wrote: On 16:47Â* 1 Aug 2020, Simon Mason said: On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 4:26:56 PM UTC+1, Pamela wrote: Of course a cyclist should stop to do this but sometimes it would have to be every 25 metres making a journey effectively impossible. I achieved the "impossible" every day for 15 years then! Are you saying that for 15 years you stopped every 25 metres while cycling? I never needed to as my luggage, such as it was, never shifted in position as it was stored securely. You incorrectly stated that there must be an "inevitable shifting of the load", which was not true in my case. Absolutely. So long as the bag is secure the contents don't shift once they've settled. On a bike there is far less movement than when country walking or downhill running (or rather, making a flowing series of leaps between rocks). On a volcano hike in NZ there is a downhill section of about 1 in 1 for about 300m that's perfect for running. People that walk it (most people) say how difficult it is. Walking takes 20-25 minutes, I did in 5. Apparently I couldn't have done this because I was carrying a 30l bag that would have caused me to lose balance. Or maybe the physics is different to cycling. Or something. We're talking about ordinary groceries from Tesco, not what stuff you wiuld carry on a volcano in New Zealand. Think eggs, bread, milk, apples, lettuce, tomatoes, etc.Â* How do you practically strap a heavy bag of groceries inside a rucksack so securely as not to shift -- without damaging the items? Well, there are two issues here. Your concern about the produce and Nugent's interpretation of the Laws of physics. Do you dispute the fact that taising the centre of gravity (of something, anything, including a human on a bicycle) will reduce its stability? Yes, or no? Concerning the produce. Don't put them in a shopping bag and then stuff that bag inside a backpack. That action would do a lot of damage. Put items in the pack individually, soft stuff at the top. There is some shift when the pack is put on the back but there is no shift while riding. The end result can't be worse than walking. Walking is likely to worse because there is more motion and more steps have to be taken. Never had squashed tomatos. |
#86
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park
On 05/08/2020 18:42, Simon Mason wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 6:08:03 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote: Concerning the produce. Don't put them in a shopping bag and then stuff that bag inside a backpack. That action would do a lot of damage. Put items in the pack individually, soft stuff at the top. There is some shift when the pack is put on the back but there is no shift while riding. The end result can't be worse than walking. Walking is likely to worse because there is more motion and more steps have to be taken. Never had squashed tomatos. Plus, never go round a sharp bend in a top heavy 4x4 with a heavy load. QUOTE: A decade or so ago nobody would be surprised to see an F series pickup or a big honking SUV lying on its side after tipping over. When you don’t compensate for a top heavy load and big gaping clearances you are setting the stage for a roll bar field test. ENDS Top 10 cars for tipping over: https://autowise.com/top-10-trucks-a...y-to-tip-over/ Quite so. And this is because an elevated centre of gravity reduces stability and increases the possibility of tipping. Tell TMS320. He doesn't believe it. |
#87
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 20:07, TMS320 wrote:
On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its stability? Does it: (a) decrease stability, or (b) increase stability, or (c) have no effect on stability? You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation. You claim a). Now show your working. There we have it. Where? There is no working. You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will not decrease that person's stability. Â* Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your meaning is plain enough. Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue. You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect stability. Â* Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear. I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know there is more to science than stripping wires. Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle - even clearer. (That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.) Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects stability". A raised centre of gravity affects stability adversely, if that's what you prefer. A lwer or lowered centre of gravity improves stability. It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time. A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up. How interesting. Do you still dispute that raising the centre of gravity of a person on a bicycle will adversely affect (or "worsen") the stability of that person on the bike? Your answer will suffice in the form of a "Yes" or a "No". |
#88
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tescocar park
On 05/08/2020 20:21, JNugent wrote:
On 05/08/2020 20:07, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its stability? Does it: (a) decrease stability, or (b) increase stability, or (c) have no effect on stability? You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation. You claim a). Now show your working. There we have it. Where? There is no working. You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will not decrease that person's stability. Â* Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your meaning is plain enough. Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue. You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect stability. Â* Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear. I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know there is more to science than stripping wires. Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle - even clearer. (That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.) Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects stability". A raised centre of gravity affects stability adversely, if that's what you prefer. A lwer or lowered centre of gravity improves stability. It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time. A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up. How interesting. Do you still dispute that raising the centre of gravity of a person on a bicycle will adversely affect (or "worsen") the stability of that person on the bike? Your answer will suffice in the form of a "Yes" or a "No". Keep your mind tightly closed if you insist. |
#89
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park
On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 19:21:09 GMT, JNugent
wrote: On 05/08/2020 20:07, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: [] A lwer or lowered centre of gravity improves stability. I agree, I much prefer carrying loads in panniers; apart from that a sweaty back is uncomfortable, IME, but each to their own. Seems little point in arguing over it. Let's get try discussing momentum. -- Bah, and indeed, Humbug. |
#90
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Exeter road rage driver banned for mowing down cyclist in Tesco car park
On 20:07 5 Aug 2020, TMS320 said:
On 05/08/2020 15:14, JNugent wrote: On 05/08/2020 08:45, TMS320 wrote: On 05/08/2020 01:35, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 13:47, TMS320 wrote: On 04/08/2020 12:39, JNugent wrote: On 04/08/2020 08:14, TMS320 wrote: On 03/08/2020 23:51, JNugent wrote: If the effective centre of gravity of a bicycle and its rider is raised, eg, by placing a heavy load high up, perhaps by the wearing of a loaded backpack, what effect does that have on its stability? Does it: (a) decrease stability, or (b) increase stability, or (c) have no effect on stability? You're doing is the equivalent of saying that the sun rises over one horizon and sets over another. When asked why? you then ask "are you claiming it doesn't do this?" when the answer you should be giving has something to do with orbit and rotation. You claim a). Now show your working. There we have it. Where? There is no working. You are insisting (with as much force as you dare for fear of rightful ridicule) that raising a cyclist's centre of gravity will not decrease that person's stability. Thank you for being as clear as you feel able. It'll do. Your meaning is plain enough. Oh, it's certainly clear enough that you don't have a clue. You are insisting that raising the centre of gravity does not affect stability. Thanks for making your (erroneous) position clear. I recall that on a legal forum you once related how you started your working career failing to be an electrical technician. You should know there is more to science than stripping wires. Thank you for making the desperation of your position - insisting that a raised centre of gravity will not affect the balance of a bicycle - even clearer. (That confirms I'm not thinking of the wrong person.) Your position was that raised CoG decreases stability. Now it "affects stability". It's an inverted pendulum problem. An inverted pendulum is inherently unstable and the thing that keeps it upright is a servo mechanism. Turn the servo mechanism off and it will fall over. CoG and moment of inertia are just parameters that have to be accounted for the servo. Thus when masses are added or relocated on a bike or on the person riding it, it might take a moment to recalibrate but the fundamentals don't change. A human can do the calibration once and remember it for next time. A nice example is a space rocket. This is balanced on one point, not two as a bike (try standing on one leg with your eyes closed). When a rocket takes off, the fuel load reduces so the GoG and MoI are constantly changing accordingly. It's not a question that the rocket becomes more or less stable, it's all down to whether the servo mechanism is good enough to keep it pointing up. In other words, a shifting rucksack packed with groceries will destabilise a cyclist. If it is more than he can compensate for then he will fall off. Q.E.D. |
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