United charging $350 r/t for bicycles

A company like Trek could turn the airline restrictions into a
marketing
advantage by coming up with a program where dealers could provide
reasonably priced rental bicycles (say $100/week) to Trek owners that
are traveling.

Why limit it to Trek owners? Seems like it'd be a good way to
convince some of the renters that they like the bike enough to buy one
later.

It's been looked into extensively. The problem is that the size of the
rental fleet would have to be substantial (people come in many sizes!),
the liability is significant (increased insurance premiums and in some
cases it's impossible to obtain rental insurance at all), and the amount
of time it takes to set someone up properly with a rental bike is little
different from what's involved in selling a bike (if you do it right).
Sure, there will be some who will know the exact seat height, exact
stem, and correct drop from saddle to bars etc. But most won't. Plus
wear & tear and getting the bike ready for each new rider. $100/week
wouldn't begin to cover it. Some local shops are doing high-quality road
bike rentals at $60-$80/day and still not doing well with it.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"peter" wrote in message
...
On Oct 16, 9:30 pm, SMS wrote:
peter wrote:
In addition to golf bags, water and snow skis, and snowboards also
appear to be exempt from the 62 linear inch (L + W + H) limit
without
an extra charge (the 50 lb. limit does still apply). However, scuba
divers, lugers, surfers, and pole vaulters are in the same situation
as cyclists.

A woman I know had some custom "golf bags" made up that look like golf
bags but that store her wind surfer somehow. I'm not into windsurfing
so
I don't know the details, but apparently they are essentially
over-size
golf bags. They've gotten away with not paying the extra baggage fees
for years.

I've thought of doing something similar for my folding kayak. It
looks to me like it'll fit in one of the larger regular golf bags, so
I was thinking of getting one to replace the large duffel bag that it
came in originally. But I haven't flown with it recently and in the
past I was never charged extra despite the dimensions being over the
nominal limits (the airlines were always careful about weighing it,
but never brought out a tape measure).

At $350 r/t it's definitely time to look at alternatives that can fit
into a 62 inch case like a Bike Friday or a Gaerlan gt20. The
"problem"
with S&S couplers is that they only work on round steel tubing as an
after-market product (they did manage one aluminum tandem customer but
the lugs are put on at the factory, not after-the-fact).

It's also pretty tough to actually meet the 62" limit with 700c wheels
since the wheels alone are almost 27" long and wide for 54" leaving
only 8" for depth. 26" wheels are more feasible.

A company like Trek could turn the airline restrictions into a
marketing
advantage by coming up with a program where dealers could provide
reasonably priced rental bicycles (say $100/week) to Trek owners that
are traveling.

Why limit it to Trek owners? Seems like it'd be a good way to
convince some of the renters that they like the bike enough to buy one
later.

In article ,
SMS wrote:

peter wrote:

In addition to golf bags, water and snow skis, and snowboards also
appear to be exempt from the 62 linear inch (L + W + H) limit without
an extra charge (the 50 lb. limit does still apply). However, scuba
divers, lugers, surfers, and pole vaulters are in the same situation
as cyclists.

A woman I know had some custom "golf bags" made up that look like golf
bags but that store her wind surfer somehow. I'm not into windsurfing so
I don't know the details, but apparently they are essentially over-size
golf bags. They've gotten away with not paying the extra baggage fees
for years.

Are you sure it was a windsurfer? Because those boards are huge (indeed,
the story is they spoiled it for surfers, who used to get free carriage
for surfboards, by representing much longer windsurf boards as
"surfboards"). Maybe for a break-apart design.

However, the general gambit of golf-like sports bags has been
institutionalized. Behold the kiteboarding golf bag:

http://greenhatkiteboarding.com/stor...roduct_info&pr
oducts_id=183&currency=USD

This is one of many kiteboarding golf bags (that's the generic term)
that use protective mimicry (going as far, as you can see, to faux golf
branding) to pass as a golf bag. Note that kiteboards are way smaller
than windsurf boards, and probably smaller than surfboards in most
cases, so they pass as golf gear somewhat plausibly.

At $350 r/t it's definitely time to look at alternatives that can fit
into a 62 inch case like a Bike Friday or a Gaerlan gt20. The "problem"
with S&S couplers is that they only work on round steel tubing as an
after-market product (they did manage one aluminum tandem customer but
the lugs are put on at the factory, not after-the-fact).

A company like Trek could turn the airline restrictions into a marketing
advantage by coming up with a program where dealers could provide
reasonably priced rental bicycles (say $100/week) to Trek owners that
are traveling.

Maybe. I suspect the bike shops that want to rent bikes are already
renting bikes, and the rest don't want to get into that business.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:49:07 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, "Mike
Jacoubowsky" wrote:

Besides being difficult to justify when a bicycle is under the 50
pound weight limit, United does *not* charge extra for golf, archery or
bowling equipment, all of which represent a challenge to deal with.

Skiers get to ship ski bags as ordinary baggage, too.

At $350 r/t it's definitely time to look at alternatives that can fit

At those prices, it's cheaper (and more reliable) to have the bike
shipped.
--
mac the naïf

On 2008-10-17, peter wrote:
It's also pretty tough to actually meet the 62" limit with 700c wheels
since the wheels alone are almost 27" long and wide for 54" leaving
only 8" for depth. 26" wheels are more feasible.

700c rims are less than 26 inches in diameter (the diameter at the
bead seat is 622 mm, or 24.5 inches) so the wheels will fit in the
26x26x10 S&S hard case if the tires are skinny or if you let the air
out of your fat tires. I use the canvas case, which is nominally the
same size, since my steerer tube is cut a wee bit too long for the
fork to fit in 26 inches; it bulges the corner of the canvas case
out a bit.

Dennis Ferguson

Got a response from United that was not a form letter, and indicated
that someone had actually paid attention to what I'd written. Of course
it included all sorts of stuff about needing to have funds to keep the
planes flying and fares low. I wrote a follow-up letter and am
absolutely positively not letting this drop.

But PLEASE email United yourselves!!! It can make a difference.

Try this link and see if it works-
http://faq.ua2go.com/display/4/kb/at...atr&r=0.616482

If not, go to www.ual.com, click on the "Customer service" across the
top right of the page, and choose "submit a question."

Time is of the essence. The more people who write in, sooner, the better
the chances something might be done. They *are* hearing from people.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com




"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
...
HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW FEES FOR BIKES ON AIRPLANES???

United Airlines, my airline of choice for the last few years, just
raised the price of carrying a bike, one way, to $175. That's $350
round trip. For US travel. I have yet to see references to
international travel, but assume it's the same, or worse. This is
outrageous, especially considering that Southwest charges
nothing...zero...zilch...nada... for carrying a standard bicycle.
Other airlines are somewhere in-between.
If this is an issue that could affect you (and it likely is!), please
consider letting United Airlines know how you feel about it. It's not
an easy process; you have to navigate through a lot of garbage on
their website, but you start here.

Below is the email I sent. I'll let people know if/when I get a reply.
The more people who let United know about their displeasure on this
matter, the more likely it is we might see the price increases rolled
back. Thanks- --Mike--

==============================
Regarding: New fees for bicycles

Recently United raised the one-way fee for bicycles to $175 ($350
round trip). Besides being difficult to justify when a bicycle is
under the 50 pound weight limit, United does *not* charge extra for
golf, archery or bowling equipment, all of which represent a challenge
to deal with.

I have been 2P/Premier for the past several years, and had intended to
remain so for some time to come. But there are alternative carriers
not charging such high fees for cyclists, some charging nothing extra
whatsoever, others in the $50 range.

My customers (I own a large retail bicycle shop) are talking about
United's new bicycle charges frequently, and many have spoken of
looking at alternatives.

Why does United want to drive us away? Those flying with bikes are
typically your better customers in the upper elite ranks. They
represent a lot of $$$. It seems that United might want to go to some
trouble attracting, rather than annoying, such customers.

We're not asking for you to carry bikes for free, but rather a
reasonable charge, and parity with what other non-standard baggage
(such as the previously-mentioned golf, archery & bowling)is charged.

Thanks for your consideration of this important issue-

Mike Jacoubowsky
Partner
Chain Reaction Bicycles

============================

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

On Oct 17, 1:06*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
Got a response from United that was not a form letter, and indicated
that someone had actually paid attention to what I'd written. Of course
it included all sorts of stuff about needing to have funds to keep the
planes flying and fares low. I wrote a follow-up letter and am
absolutely positively not letting this drop.

But PLEASE email United yourselves!!! It can make a difference.

Try this link and see if it works-http://faq.ua2go.com/display/4/kb/atr/index.asp?tab=atr&r=0.616482

If not, go towww.ual.com, click on the "Customer service" across the
top right of the page, and choose "submit a question."

Time is of the essence. The more people who write in, sooner, the better
the chances something might be done. They *are* hearing from people.

--Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.comOn Oct 15, 9:49 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW FEES FOR BIKES ON AIRPLANES???

United Airlines, my airline of choice for the last few years, just
raised the price of carrying a bike, one way, to $175. That's $350 round
trip. For US travel. I have yet to see references to international
travel, but assume it's the same, or worse. This is outrageous,
especially considering that Southwest charges
nothing...zero...zilch...nada... for carrying a standard bicycle. Other
airlines are somewhere in-between.
If this is an issue that could affect you (and it likely is!), please
consider letting United Airlines know how you feel about it. It's not an
easy process; you have to navigate through a lot of garbage on their
website, but you start here.

Below is the email I sent. I'll let people know if/when I get a reply.
The more people who let United know about their displeasure on this
matter, the more likely it is we might see the price increases rolled
back. Thanks- --Mike--

Even the prior fee of $125 seems exorbitant to me.

I will write a letter (and perhaps e-mail as well). But it seems to
me this is something that cycling organizations should be attacking
with a vengeance. What is the League of American Bicyclists doing?
Mike, what are your various industry groups doing?

- Frank Krygowski

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:


Plus
wear & tear and getting the bike ready for each new rider. $100/week
wouldn't begin to cover it. Some local shops are doing high-quality road
bike rentals at $60-$80/day and still not doing well with it.

It always amazes me that I can rent a vehicle with a $20,000 street
price for about $40 per day, but to rent a bicycle with a $2000 street
price costs $80 a day.

On Oct 17, 8:04*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:06*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

Got a response from United that was not a form letter, and indicated
that someone had actually paid attention to what I'd written. Of course
it included all sorts of stuff about needing to have funds to keep the
planes flying and fares low. I wrote a follow-up letter and am
absolutely positively not letting this drop.

But PLEASE email United yourselves!!! It can make a difference.

Try this link and see if it works-http://faq.ua2go.com/display/4/kb/atr/index.asp?tab=atr&r=0.616482

If not, go towww.ual.com, click on the "Customer service" across the
top right of the page, and choose "submit a question."

Time is of the essence. The more people who write in, sooner, the better
the chances something might be done. They *are* hearing from people.

--Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.comOnOct 15, 9:49 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW FEES FOR BIKES ON AIRPLANES???

United Airlines, my airline of choice for the last few years, just
raised the price of carrying a bike, one way, to $175. That's $350 round
trip. For US travel. I have yet to see references to international
travel, but assume it's the same, or worse. This is outrageous,
especially considering that Southwest charges
nothing...zero...zilch...nada... for carrying a standard bicycle. Other
airlines are somewhere in-between.
If this is an issue that could affect you (and it likely is!), please
consider letting United Airlines know how you feel about it. It's not an
easy process; you have to navigate through a lot of garbage on their
website, but you start here.

Below is the email I sent. I'll let people know if/when I get a reply.
The more people who let United know about their displeasure on this
matter, the more likely it is we might see the price increases rolled
back. *Thanks- *--Mike--

Even the prior fee of $125 seems exorbitant to me.

I will write a letter (and perhaps e-mail as well). *But it seems to
me this is something that cycling organizations should be attacking
with a vengeance. *What is the League of American Bicyclists doing?
Mike, what are your various industry groups doing?

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

Gald you asked!

The League of American Wheelmen long ago forced the blood-sucking
transportation industry to bow to the demands of cyclists for free
carriage of highwheelers:

"The following railroads have issued instructions to carry bicycles
free, at owners' risks, in
baggage-cars, when accompanied by owners, and upon presentation of
first-class tickets: Baltimore & Ohio; Grand Trunk; Chicago and Grand
Trunk; Wabash, St. Louis, & Pacific; Illinois Central; Chicago, Alton,
& St. Louis; Wheeling & Lake Erie; Cleveland & Marietta; Ohio &
Central; New York, Chicago, & St.Louis; Lake Erie & Western; Detroit,
Grand Haven, & Milwaukee."

--Outing Magazine, 1883
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...2/outII02s.pdf

After the first few railways gave in, the rest toppled like dominoes:

"We give a list of railroads that have issued circulars of instruction
to baggage-masters and
station agents to pass bicycles free in baggage cars when accompanied
by owner, and upon
presentation of first-class ticket:"

"Baltimore & Ohio. Grand Trunk. Chicago & Grand Trunk. Wabash, St.
Louis, & Pacific. Illinois Central. Chicago, Alton, & St. Louis.
Wheeling & Lake Erie. Cleveland & Marietta. Ohio Central.
New York, Chicago, & St. Louis. Lake Erie & Western. Cleveland,
Lorain, & Wheeling. Flint & Pere Marquette. Grand Central Chicago,
Burlington, & Quincy. Chicago & Iowa. Grand Union. Kansas City, St.
Joseph, & Council Bluffs. Cleveland, Tuscarawas Valley, & Wheeling.
Vandalia Line. Grand Rapids & Indiana. Indiana, Bloomington, &
Western. Valley Ry. Cleveland, Akron, & P.) Michigan Central. Canada
Southern. Ohio & Mississippi. Cleveland, Columbus, Cincin., &
Indianapolis. Indianapolis & St. Louis. Cincinnati, Hamilton, &
Dayton. Chicago & West Michigan. Louisville, New Albany, & Chicago.
Chicago, Milwaukee, and St. Paul. Delaware, Lackawanna, & Western.
Chicago & Eastern Illinois."

--Outing Magazine, 1883
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...3/outII03r.pdf

Regrettably, bicycles were still held hostage by railways in the UK:

The following are the rates for transporting bicycles in England, as
luggage, at the owner’s
risk :
s. d.
Under 50 miles, 1 0.
Over 50 " under 75, 1 6.
" 75 " " 100, 2 0.
" 100 " " 150, 2 6.

--Outing magazine, 1883
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...5/outII05q.pdf

Eventually, the scoundrels in charge of the US railroads managed to
enforce outrageous baggage charges, except where upright legislators
forced them to carry our bicycles for free:

"With laws now in force compelling railroads to transport bicycles as
baggage free of charge
in New York, Ohio and Rhode Island, and with a probability that
similar legislation will be
enacted in many other States within a twelvemonth, several of the
great trunk lines are experimenting with devices for the carriage of
wheels suspended from the ceiling and attached
to the sides of baggage cars, after the manner of the French
railways."

"The Pennsylvania lines west of Pittsburg and the Chicago, Milwaukee &
St. Paul Railway are already running a few such cars—the former
between Pittsburg and Chicago, and the latter between Chicago and
Minneapolis. The results seem equally satisfactory to traveling
wheelmen and to the transportation companies. It has been found that
twenty-five wheels may be carried in an ordinary baggage car without
interfering with other baggage, the former utilizing the otherwise
unused space, and requiring no floor room at all."

"It is probable that within two years a majority of all baggage cars
on the principal lines of the railroad States and Canada will be
fitted up for the carriage of bicycles, and that an extra charge for
transportation will be the exception rather than the rule."

"On October 1st the railroads of the New England States began the
'minimum rate charge' for the transportation of bicycles when
accompanied by their owners, and one month's trial
of the plan proves it to be the most satisfactory solution of the
bicycles-as-baggage problem.
Upon the payment of very reasonable charges, the railroads agree to
check and treat bicycles
as baggage, assuming all responsibility for their safe delivery. Such
a system is preferable to
their free carriage, as in the latter case accidents to machines in
transit are much more
are much more frequent, and there is generally no possible redress
therefor."

"It is probable that special cars for the transportation of wheels
will be run for the convenience of tourists on the principal lines of
the N. Y., N. H. & H. R. R., and the
Boston and Maine next season. The following table is the schedule now
in force on all the
New England lines:"

Ticket Rate Charge for Bicycle
$0.05 to 0.74 10 cents
0.75 to 0.99 15 cents
1.00 to 1.49 20 cents
1.50 to 1.99 25 cents
2.00 to 2.49 30 cents
2.50 to 2.99 35 cents
3.00 to 3.49 40 cents
3.50 to 3.99 45 cents
4.00 to 4.49 50 cents
4.50 to 4.99 55 cents
5.00 to 5.49 60 cents
5.50 to 5.99 65 cents
6.00 to 6.49 70 cents
6.50 to 6.99 75 cents
7.00 to 7.49 80 cents
7.50 to 7.99 85 cents
8.00 to 8.99 90 cents
9.00 to 10.00 $1.00

--Outing Magazine, 1898
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports...outXXIX04y.pdf

Of course, modern carriers may be slightly more concerned about the
insurance question, given the $5,000 bicycles involved.

And they might laugh at the notion that bicyclists are somehow on a
par (sorry, couldn't resist it) with golfers as airline customers.
Golfers who want to take their toys with them greatly outnumber flying
bicyclists. You can see the golf courses from the airplane windows and
rent clubs in practically any city in the US.

When Mike and his fellow bike shop owners can make a profit renting
bicycles, the airlines will lower their charges. That's what happened
back in the bike boom, circa 1890, as the quotations above point out.
Today, there aren't enough bicyclists who want to take their wheels
with them to matter to the airlines, particularly when the airlines
are desperate enough to charge for ordinary bags.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"SMS" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:


Plus wear & tear and getting the bike ready for each new rider.
$100/week wouldn't begin to cover it. Some local shops are doing
high-quality road bike rentals at $60-$80/day and still not doing
well with it.

It always amazes me that I can rent a vehicle with a $20,000 street
price for about $40 per day, but to rent a bicycle with a $2000 street
price costs $80 a day.

DUM. Depreciation, utililzation and maintenance. Bicycles lose out on
all three.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"SMS" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:


Plus wear & tear and getting the bike ready for each new rider.
$100/week wouldn't begin to cover it. Some local shops are doing
high-quality road bike rentals at $60-$80/day and still not doing
well with it.

It always amazes me that I can rent a vehicle with a $20,000 street
price for about $40 per day, but to rent a bicycle with a $2000 street
price costs $80 a day.