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  #11  
Old January 16th 19, 05:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 1,261
Default Electric dangers

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:03:05 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:14:43 -0800, Mark J. wrote:

On 1/14/2019 3:22 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:36:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/14/...de-news-man-s-

electric-bike-explodes-almost-starts-bushfire

I liked the part where it was said that "The motor's lithium batteries
and CO2 cartridges from its repair kit had ignited".

I suspect that the reporter might have a bit at odds with the facts at
that point.


I noticed that too; I think the intent was "batteries ignited and CO2
cartridges /exploded/," which fits the later text and makes sense in
context. Then an editor caught hold of it.

Mark J.


ALL gas sylinders explode over here, even though they are engineered to
vent the contents at too high a pressure. IME, CO2 cartridges don't have
that enginering, so theryprobably did explode. Situated above the
flamming battery probably wasn't a good position in this case.


This is not exploding in the shrapnel sense. The metal end cap is a small percentage of the actual strength of the cylinder. Heat builds up the pressure and the end cap lets loose and the worse thing would be the cylinder sailing around. I suppose if you were at ground zero you could get a bruise or break a bone.
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  #12  
Old January 16th 19, 05:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Electric dangers

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:00:58 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:03:05 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:14:43 -0800, Mark J. wrote:

On 1/14/2019 3:22 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:36:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/14/...de-news-man-s-

electric-bike-explodes-almost-starts-bushfire

I liked the part where it was said that "The motor's lithium batteries
and CO2 cartridges from its repair kit had ignited".

I suspect that the reporter might have a bit at odds with the facts at
that point.

I noticed that too; I think the intent was "batteries ignited and CO2
cartridges /exploded/," which fits the later text and makes sense in
context. Then an editor caught hold of it.

Mark J.


ALL gas sylinders explode over here, even though they are engineered to
vent the contents at too high a pressure. IME, CO2 cartridges don't have
that enginering, so theryprobably did explode. Situated above the
flamming battery probably wasn't a good position in this case.


This is not exploding in the shrapnel sense. The metal end cap is a small percentage of the actual strength of the cylinder. Heat builds up the pressure and the end cap lets loose and the worse thing would be the cylinder sailing around. I suppose if you were at ground zero you could get a bruise or break a bone.


The CO2 cartridge would also put out the battery fire. Think of it as a portable fire suppression system. Maybe one could us a CO2 cartridge to pressurize a water-bottle fire sprinkler system over the battery case. Kickstarter opportunity!

-- Jay Beattie.

  #13  
Old January 16th 19, 11:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
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Posts: 1,131
Default Electric dangers

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 08:00:54 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:03:05 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:14:43 -0800, Mark J. wrote:

On 1/14/2019 3:22 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:36:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/14/...de-news-man-s-

electric-bike-explodes-almost-starts-bushfire

I liked the part where it was said that "The motor's lithium
batteries and CO2 cartridges from its repair kit had ignited".

I suspect that the reporter might have a bit at odds with the facts
at that point.

I noticed that too; I think the intent was "batteries ignited and CO2
cartridges /exploded/," which fits the later text and makes sense in
context. Then an editor caught hold of it.

Mark J.


ALL gas sylinders explode over here, even though they are engineered to
vent the contents at too high a pressure. IME, CO2 cartridges don't
have that enginering, so theryprobably did explode. Situated above the
flamming battery probably wasn't a good position in this case.


This is not exploding in the shrapnel sense.


That was a point I didn't make clear. Over here, as far as the press are
concerned, if there is a fire and a gas cylinder is around then it is
reported as "exploded' in the schrapnel sene. it is only in serious trade
press that reports venting.

The metal end cap is a
small percentage of the actual strength of the cylinder. Heat builds up
the pressure and the end cap lets loose and the worse thing would be the
cylinder sailing around. I suppose if you were at ground zero you could
get a bruise or break a bone.


I, for one, wouldn't want to test that theory.

  #14  
Old January 16th 19, 11:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Electric dangers

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 08:18:29 -0800, jbeattie wrote:

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:00:58 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:03:05 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:14:43 -0800, Mark J. wrote:

On 1/14/2019 3:22 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:36:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/14/...de-news-man-s-
electric-bike-explodes-almost-starts-bushfire

I liked the part where it was said that "The motor's lithium
batteries and CO2 cartridges from its repair kit had ignited".

I suspect that the reporter might have a bit at odds with the
facts at that point.

I noticed that too; I think the intent was "batteries ignited and
CO2 cartridges /exploded/," which fits the later text and makes
sense in context. Then an editor caught hold of it.

Mark J.

ALL gas sylinders explode over here, even though they are engineered
to vent the contents at too high a pressure. IME, CO2 cartridges
don't have that enginering, so theryprobably did explode. Situated
above the flamming battery probably wasn't a good position in this
case.


This is not exploding in the shrapnel sense. The metal end cap is a
small percentage of the actual strength of the cylinder. Heat builds up
the pressure and the end cap lets loose and the worse thing would be
the cylinder sailing around. I suppose if you were at ground zero you
could get a bruise or break a bone.


The CO2 cartridge would also put out the battery fire. Think of it as a
portable fire suppression system. Maybe one could us a CO2 cartridge to
pressurize a water-bottle fire sprinkler system over the battery case.
Kickstarter opportunity!


My 2c is that the water bottle is likely to explode first, but why waste
one fire suppresent method(suffocation by C02 replacing Oxygen) with
another less general method of fire suppresant(heat remowal).



-- Jay Beattie.


  #15  
Old January 20th 19, 06:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default Electric dangers

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 2:10:31 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 08:18:29 -0800, jbeattie wrote:

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:00:58 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:03:05 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:14:43 -0800, Mark J. wrote:

On 1/14/2019 3:22 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:36:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/14/...de-news-man-s-
electric-bike-explodes-almost-starts-bushfire

I liked the part where it was said that "The motor's lithium
batteries and CO2 cartridges from its repair kit had ignited".

I suspect that the reporter might have a bit at odds with the
facts at that point.

I noticed that too; I think the intent was "batteries ignited and
CO2 cartridges /exploded/," which fits the later text and makes
sense in context. Then an editor caught hold of it.

Mark J.

ALL gas sylinders explode over here, even though they are engineered
to vent the contents at too high a pressure. IME, CO2 cartridges
don't have that enginering, so theryprobably did explode. Situated
above the flamming battery probably wasn't a good position in this
case.

This is not exploding in the shrapnel sense. The metal end cap is a
small percentage of the actual strength of the cylinder. Heat builds up
the pressure and the end cap lets loose and the worse thing would be
the cylinder sailing around. I suppose if you were at ground zero you
could get a bruise or break a bone.


The CO2 cartridge would also put out the battery fire. Think of it as a
portable fire suppression system. Maybe one could us a CO2 cartridge to
pressurize a water-bottle fire sprinkler system over the battery case.
Kickstarter opportunity!


My 2c is that the water bottle is likely to explode first, but why waste
one fire suppresent method(suffocation by C02 replacing Oxygen) with
another less general method of fire suppresant(heat remowal).



-- Jay Beattie.


The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 - it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the energy in the shorted cells.
  #16  
Old January 21st 19, 05:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 2,041
Default Electric dangers

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:29:06 PM UTC-6, John B. Slocomb wrote:
But realistically, one can't expect all
reporters to know all about everything.

Cheers,
John B.


Yes. But I expect even people without a high school diploma to know CO2 does not burn, and cannot burn. Its a fire suppressant. I assume, maybe incorrectly, that anyone working at a newspaper or a reporter, to have a few years of elementary school or high school education. CO2 not burning is right up there with night is dark, winter is cold. You don't need much intelligence to know that.
  #17  
Old January 21st 19, 05:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 2,041
Default Electric dangers

On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:24:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:

The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 - it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the energy in the shorted cells.


Sure lithium ion battery fires can be extinguished by CO2. Fire requires oxygen to make fire. CO2 supplants oxygen. No oxygen, no fire. I'm sure its true the lithium ion battery can create enough heat to start a fire if its not soaked with water for a long time. But that fire still requires oxygen to start and continue. Or some other fire friendly gas. If you have CO2 continuously supplanting oxygen, then no fire can start or burn.
  #18  
Old January 21st 19, 11:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Electric dangers

On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 20:13:51 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:29:06 PM UTC-6, John B. Slocomb wrote:
But realistically, one can't expect all
reporters to know all about everything.

Cheers,
John B.


Yes. But I expect even people without a high school diploma to know CO2 does not burn, and cannot burn. Its a fire suppressant. I assume, maybe incorrectly, that anyone working at a newspaper or a reporter, to have a few years of elementary school or high school education. CO2 not burning is right up there with night is dark, winter is cold. You don't need much intelligence to know that.


And Dihydrogen Monoxide is dangerous stuff too :-)
http://www.dhmo.org/alerts/alert022800

Sometimes referred to as DHMO is a common beverage additive:

New revelations about Dihydrogen Monoxide and its
use in the beverage industry indicate that nearly
all beverages contain some amount of the potentially
dangerous chemical compound.

A current study reveals that far from being uncommon,
Dihydrogen Monoxide is used as an additive by
every major beverage manufacturer in the world.
The study found that Dihydrogen Monoxide was never
explicitly named on any beverage label.

DHMO has been found in beer, milk, baby formula,
champagne, wine, distilled spirits, carbonated
drinks, sports drinks, and even in "pure"
bottled water.

Tom Way
Director of Research
DHMO.org - Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division
web: http://www.dhmo.org
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #19  
Old January 21st 19, 05:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 1,747
Default Electric dangers

" writes:

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:29:06 PM UTC-6, John B. Slocomb wrote:
But realistically, one can't expect all
reporters to know all about everything.

Cheers,
John B.


Yes. But I expect even people without a high school diploma to know
CO2 does not burn, and cannot burn. Its a fire suppressant. I
assume, maybe incorrectly, that anyone working at a newspaper or a
reporter, to have a few years of elementary school or high school
education. CO2 not burning is right up there with night is dark,
winter is cold. You don't need much intelligence to know that.


CO2 can serve as an oxidizer, which might surprise even an educated
person. I'm fairly sure that if trying to use a CO2 fire extinguisher on a
lithium fire will just make it worse.

--
  #20  
Old January 21st 19, 06:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 1,747
Default Electric dangers

" writes:

On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:24:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:

The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 -
it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now
continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If
the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is
to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the
energy in the shorted cells.


Sure lithium ion battery fires can be extinguished by CO2. Fire
requires oxygen to make fire. CO2 supplants oxygen. No oxygen, no
fire. I'm sure its true the lithium ion battery can create enough
heat to start a fire if its not soaked with water for a long time.
But that fire still requires oxygen to start and continue. Or some
other fire friendly gas. If you have CO2 continuously supplanting
oxygen, then no fire can start or burn.


I'm not sure about Li-ION battery fires, but in general your statement
is simply not true. Magnesium or aluminum will burn happily in a pure
CO2 atmosphere.

--
 




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