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#131
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Chain Question -- Joining 10sp
On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 03:07:39 +0000, Clive George
wrote: On 10/01/2015 02:28, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 13:31:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/9/2015 9:17 AM, Clive George wrote: On 09/01/2015 12:35, John B. Slocomb wrote: ... you certainly imply that spanking is totally wrong. I don't merely imply it. I've stated it completely explicitly. Sort the other parenting and the problems go away - add spanking (if indeed it's not already there) and if they're that dysfunctional already it could well get worse. I must say, I don't think even the world's best parenting works every time. From what I've seen, kids pop out with their own personalities, and each one is different. Kids treated exactly equally will still develop different attitudes and behaviors. And unfortunately, some of those will need serious correction. Things are further complicated by society's trend toward serial marriages, or children outside marriage. One parent can marry into a family where the kids have been terribly influenced by a former [quasi-]spouse. The new parent can face problems far greater than normal. Whether or not spanking is appropriate, those are the facts on the ground. It does no good to idealize the situation and pretend that all kids' problems come from foolish, incompetent parenting. I think that one problem is the definition of "spanking" which I gather many define as some sort of a beating, and which I am not sure is correct in all instances. Example: A toddler tries to reach and grab the handle of a pot sitting on the stove, which happens to contain boiling water. My experience is that sitting that child, with its very limited vocabulary (and likely) understanding, down and attempting to reason with it as to why they shouldn't grab that enticing handle is futile, while gripping the child by the arm and slapping its hand and saying "NO!" in a loud emphatic voice does solve the problem. We're at that false dichotomy again aren't we. I've never claimed that simply trying to reason with the child will be any more effective than arguing on usenet :-) There's more options than just talking and smacking. "NO!" is appropriate - the voice tone is definitely not a normal talking tone. Removing the child from the source of danger is appropriate. Restraining them could well be appropriate, though doing so by eg holding them rather than using a roll of gaffer tape. Have you actually raised any kids? I have, and my experience is that sometimes NO! makes them stop dead in their tracks and sometimes it doesn't. Other than apparently "hope springs eternal" in small children so some times you have to do it more than once :-) It works the same way training hunting dogs by the way :-) But, civilization aside, to my mind preventing of the child from pulling the pot of boiling water down on its head is far more important than obeying some effete rule that someone in society has made. And it's entirely possible to do that without spanking. I wouldn't argue, but it is equally possible that it won't work. I think that, having seen one little girl that did pull a pot of boiling water down on herself, that I'd prefer not to have it happen. -- Cheers, John B. |
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#132
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Chain Question -- Joining 10sp
On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 00:10:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 1/9/2015 9:39 PM, Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 13:31:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/9/2015 9:17 AM, Clive George wrote: On 09/01/2015 12:35, John B. Slocomb wrote: ... you certainly imply that spanking is totally wrong. I don't merely imply it. I've stated it completely explicitly. Sort the other parenting and the problems go away - add spanking (if indeed it's not already there) and if they're that dysfunctional already it could well get worse. I must say, I don't think even the world's best parenting works every time. From what I've seen, kids pop out with their own personalities, and each one is different. Kids treated exactly equally will still develop different attitudes and behaviors. And unfortunately, some of those will need serious correction. Things are further complicated by society's trend toward serial marriages, or children outside marriage. One parent can marry into a family where the kids have been terribly influenced by a former [quasi-]spouse. The new parent can face problems far greater than normal. Whether or not spanking is appropriate, those are the facts on the ground. It does no good to idealize the situation and pretend that all kids' problems come from foolish, incompetent parenting. I think that one problem is the definition of "spanking" which I gather many define as some sort of a beating, and which I am not sure is correct in all instances. Example: A toddler tries to reach and grab the handle of a pot sitting on the stove, which happens to contain boiling water. My experience is that sitting that child, with its very limited vocabulary (and likely) understanding, down and attempting to reason with it as to why they shouldn't grab that enticing handle is futile, while gripping the child by the arm and slapping its hand and saying "NO!" in a loud emphatic voice does solve the problem. Other than apparently "hope springs eternal" in small children so some times you have to do it more than once :-) It works the same way training hunting dogs by the way :-) But, civilization aside, to my mind preventing of the child from pulling the pot of boiling water down on its head is far more important than obeying some effete rule that someone in society has made. Have you not noticed that a strong stern voice can convey the same thing as a smacked hand to a young child? Actually, no. Or rather, I don't believe it's as effective. FWIW, I don't think a toddler is more intelligent than, say, a pet housecat. I suppose you could look that up. But: We trained our housecat to stay off the kitchen counter, the table, etc. by smacking it - not very hard - when its paws touched the forbidden surface. As I think I said previously, I had a friend who commented that "Raising kids is like raising hunting dogs... except I reckon the dogs learn a little quicker" :-) I know very well a family that did not use that drastic measure. They yelled "NO!" instead, and scared the cat off the kitchen counter or table whenever they caught it. Our cat never gets on the table. It never gets on the counter. Theirs does at every opportunity. And again: I don't think a toddler is more intelligent than a pet housecat. The swat doesn't need to be abusive. It shouldn't be over-applied. It just needs to be quick and appropriate. -- Cheers, John B. |
#133
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Chain Question -- Joining 10sp
On 10/01/2015 11:15, John B. Slocomb wrote:
And it's entirely possible to do that without spanking. I wouldn't argue, but it is equally possible that it won't work. I think that, having seen one little girl that did pull a pot of boiling water down on herself, that I'd prefer not to have it happen. Smacking might or might not work too. What disciplinary methods were used on that little girl prior to the boiling water incident? |
#134
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Chain Question -- Joining 10sp
On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 13:59:36 +0000, Clive George
wrote: On 10/01/2015 11:15, John B. Slocomb wrote: And it's entirely possible to do that without spanking. I wouldn't argue, but it is equally possible that it won't work. I think that, having seen one little girl that did pull a pot of boiling water down on herself, that I'd prefer not to have it happen. Smacking might or might not work too. What disciplinary methods were used on that little girl prior to the boiling water incident? I have no idea. I only saw the results at the emergency clinic while I was having a "wound" treated. -- Cheers, John B. |
#135
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Chain Question -- Joining 10sp
On Monday, January 5, 2015 at 3:25:52 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
The trend is clearly moving away from removing chains for cleaning/lubrication. Bad news for the paraffin crowd. See HOW NEVER TO CLEAN ANOTHER CHAIN WHILE TRIPLING YOUR CHAIN MILEAGE at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/RVY30jmnBSo |
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