Chain Question -- Joining 10sp

On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 03:07:39 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 10/01/2015 02:28, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 13:31:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/9/2015 9:17 AM, Clive George wrote:
On 09/01/2015 12:35, John B. Slocomb wrote:
... you certainly imply that spanking is totally
wrong.

I don't merely imply it. I've stated it completely explicitly.

Sort the other parenting and the problems go away - add spanking (if
indeed it's not already there) and if they're that dysfunctional already
it could well get worse.

I must say, I don't think even the world's best parenting works every
time. From what I've seen, kids pop out with their own personalities,
and each one is different. Kids treated exactly equally will still
develop different attitudes and behaviors. And unfortunately, some of
those will need serious correction.

Things are further complicated by society's trend toward serial
marriages, or children outside marriage. One parent can marry into a
family where the kids have been terribly influenced by a former
[quasi-]spouse. The new parent can face problems far greater than normal.

Whether or not spanking is appropriate, those are the facts on the
ground. It does no good to idealize the situation and pretend that all
kids' problems come from foolish, incompetent parenting.

I think that one problem is the definition of "spanking" which I
gather many define as some sort of a beating, and which I am not sure
is correct in all instances.

Example:
A toddler tries to reach and grab the handle of a pot sitting on the
stove, which happens to contain boiling water.

My experience is that sitting that child, with its very limited
vocabulary (and likely) understanding, down and attempting to reason
with it as to why they shouldn't grab that enticing handle is futile,
while gripping the child by the arm and slapping its hand and saying
"NO!" in a loud emphatic voice does solve the problem.

We're at that false dichotomy again aren't we. I've never claimed that
simply trying to reason with the child will be any more effective than
arguing on usenet :-) There's more options than just talking and
smacking. "NO!" is appropriate - the voice tone is definitely not a
normal talking tone. Removing the child from the source of danger is
appropriate. Restraining them could well be appropriate, though doing so
by eg holding them rather than using a roll of gaffer tape.


Have you actually raised any kids? I have, and my experience is that
sometimes NO! makes them stop dead in their tracks and sometimes it
doesn't.

Other than apparently "hope springs eternal" in small children so some
times you have to do it more than once :-)

It works the same way training hunting dogs by the way :-)

But, civilization aside, to my mind preventing of the child from
pulling the pot of boiling water down on its head is far more
important than obeying some effete rule that someone in society has
made.

And it's entirely possible to do that without spanking.

I wouldn't argue, but it is equally possible that it won't work. I
think that, having seen one little girl that did pull a pot of boiling
water down on herself, that I'd prefer not to have it happen.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 00:10:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/9/2015 9:39 PM, Duane wrote:
John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 13:31:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/9/2015 9:17 AM, Clive George wrote:
On 09/01/2015 12:35, John B. Slocomb wrote:
... you certainly imply that spanking is totally
wrong.

I don't merely imply it. I've stated it completely explicitly.

Sort the other parenting and the problems go away - add spanking (if
indeed it's not already there) and if they're that dysfunctional already
it could well get worse.

I must say, I don't think even the world's best parenting works every
time. From what I've seen, kids pop out with their own personalities,
and each one is different. Kids treated exactly equally will still
develop different attitudes and behaviors. And unfortunately, some of
those will need serious correction.

Things are further complicated by society's trend toward serial
marriages, or children outside marriage. One parent can marry into a
family where the kids have been terribly influenced by a former
[quasi-]spouse. The new parent can face problems far greater than normal.

Whether or not spanking is appropriate, those are the facts on the
ground. It does no good to idealize the situation and pretend that all
kids' problems come from foolish, incompetent parenting.

I think that one problem is the definition of "spanking" which I
gather many define as some sort of a beating, and which I am not sure
is correct in all instances.

Example:
A toddler tries to reach and grab the handle of a pot sitting on the
stove, which happens to contain boiling water.

My experience is that sitting that child, with its very limited
vocabulary (and likely) understanding, down and attempting to reason
with it as to why they shouldn't grab that enticing handle is futile,
while gripping the child by the arm and slapping its hand and saying
"NO!" in a loud emphatic voice does solve the problem.

Other than apparently "hope springs eternal" in small children so some
times you have to do it more than once :-)

It works the same way training hunting dogs by the way :-)

But, civilization aside, to my mind preventing of the child from
pulling the pot of boiling water down on its head is far more
important than obeying some effete rule that someone in society has
made.

Have you not noticed that a strong stern voice can convey the same thing as
a smacked hand to a young child?

Actually, no. Or rather, I don't believe it's as effective.

FWIW, I don't think a toddler is more intelligent than, say, a pet
housecat. I suppose you could look that up. But:

We trained our housecat to stay off the kitchen counter, the table, etc.
by smacking it - not very hard - when its paws touched the forbidden
surface.

As I think I said previously, I had a friend who commented that
"Raising kids is like raising hunting dogs... except I reckon the dogs
learn a little quicker" :-)

I know very well a family that did not use that drastic measure. They
yelled "NO!" instead, and scared the cat off the kitchen counter or
table whenever they caught it.

Our cat never gets on the table. It never gets on the counter. Theirs
does at every opportunity.

And again: I don't think a toddler is more intelligent than a pet housecat.

The swat doesn't need to be abusive. It shouldn't be over-applied. It
just needs to be quick and appropriate.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/01/2015 11:15, John B. Slocomb wrote:

And it's entirely possible to do that without spanking.

I wouldn't argue, but it is equally possible that it won't work. I
think that, having seen one little girl that did pull a pot of boiling
water down on herself, that I'd prefer not to have it happen.

Smacking might or might not work too.

What disciplinary methods were used on that little girl prior to the
boiling water incident?

On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 13:59:36 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 10/01/2015 11:15, John B. Slocomb wrote:

And it's entirely possible to do that without spanking.

I wouldn't argue, but it is equally possible that it won't work. I
think that, having seen one little girl that did pull a pot of boiling
water down on herself, that I'd prefer not to have it happen.

Smacking might or might not work too.

What disciplinary methods were used on that little girl prior to the
boiling water incident?

I have no idea. I only saw the results at the emergency clinic while I
was having a "wound" treated.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, January 5, 2015 at 3:25:52 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
The trend is clearly moving away from removing chains for cleaning/lubrication. Bad news for the paraffin crowd.

See HOW NEVER TO CLEAN ANOTHER CHAIN WHILE TRIPLING YOUR CHAIN MILEAGE at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/RVY30jmnBSo