Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:00:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold.
(...)
We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Replace the entire system might be true if you were talking about an
eBike with everything in the wheel. However, other types of eBikes
tend to be modular and may offer some repair opportunities by
replacing modules. That's the current situation in the automobile
service business, where repairs often consist of replacing black boxes
or sub-assemblies. The off-the-street minimally trained technician
plugs a diagnostic interface into the vehicle and sends the collected
data to the manufacturers computer for analysis. This computer also
had data from all the other vehicles that might have similar problems.
The diagnostic results are returned to the minimally trained
technician in the form of a list or flow chart, where the most
probable fault is listed first, down to the faults of lower
probability. The service shop then finds a better trained technician
to replace black boxes starting with the those at the top of the list.
It's easy to see the problems with this method of repair, but it does
have one big advantage. The dealer does NOT need to hire a well
trained and experienced mechanic to troubleshoot the vehicle. While
replacing a few extra black boxes might be wasteful and expensive,
it's probably cheaper than the salary for the trained and experienced
mechanic.

eBike can, and eventually will be serviced in a similar manner. Plug
a diagnostic interface cable into the eBike. The other end goes into
a modem or computah. The diagnostic data, performance history,
maintenance logs, recorded faults, serial numbers, etc are downloaded
from the eBike and sent off to the factory service center in China via
the internet, where the factory computer determines the likely
culprits. You then get to replace the suggested sub-assemblies,
modules, and black boxes in accordance with the provided directions,
using factory approved and supplied parts. This would probably be a
good place to insert a rant about "right to repair" but I'll resist
the temptation. Sufficient to say that you have to do it in the
manner specified by the factory or you lose your authorized service
center status. Notice that the factory computer does not bother
indicating how it derived its suggested replacements, what part of the
circuitry has failed, and even a clue how it all works. In other
words, you learn nothing from the repair.

While providing service and repairs on products that you sell, the
mass market manufacturers are not going to help you. Instead, they
will design products that are difficult to repair and control the
price and availability of part and information (manuals). If you do
manage to get into eBike repair, it's likely to be as a 3rd party shop
using used replacement parts and reverse engineered manuals, exactly
as many Apple repair shops operate. They can do that simply because
the cost of replacement is less than the cost of repair.

Enough for now. Best of luck trying to find an answer to the central
problem. Where are we going to find the trained technicians needed to
repair today's increasingly complexicated electronics? If you find an
answer, I would appreciate a clue as to what it might be.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, 5 November 2019 23:52:10 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:00:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold.
(...)
We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Replace the entire system might be true if you were talking about an
eBike with everything in the wheel. However, other types of eBikes
tend to be modular and may offer some repair opportunities by
replacing modules. That's the current situation in the automobile
service business, where repairs often consist of replacing black boxes
or sub-assemblies. The off-the-street minimally trained technician
plugs a diagnostic interface into the vehicle and sends the collected
data to the manufacturers computer for analysis. This computer also
had data from all the other vehicles that might have similar problems.
The diagnostic results are returned to the minimally trained
technician in the form of a list or flow chart, where the most
probable fault is listed first, down to the faults of lower
probability. The service shop then finds a better trained technician
to replace black boxes starting with the those at the top of the list.
It's easy to see the problems with this method of repair, but it does
have one big advantage. The dealer does NOT need to hire a well
trained and experienced mechanic to troubleshoot the vehicle. While
replacing a few extra black boxes might be wasteful and expensive,
it's probably cheaper than the salary for the trained and experienced
mechanic.

eBike can, and eventually will be serviced in a similar manner. Plug
a diagnostic interface cable into the eBike. The other end goes into
a modem or computah. The diagnostic data, performance history,
maintenance logs, recorded faults, serial numbers, etc are downloaded
from the eBike and sent off to the factory service center in China via
the internet, where the factory computer determines the likely
culprits. You then get to replace the suggested sub-assemblies,
modules, and black boxes in accordance with the provided directions,
using factory approved and supplied parts. This would probably be a
good place to insert a rant about "right to repair" but I'll resist
the temptation. Sufficient to say that you have to do it in the
manner specified by the factory or you lose your authorized service
center status. Notice that the factory computer does not bother
indicating how it derived its suggested replacements, what part of the
circuitry has failed, and even a clue how it all works. In other
words, you learn nothing from the repair.

While providing service and repairs on products that you sell, the
mass market manufacturers are not going to help you. Instead, they
will design products that are difficult to repair and control the
price and availability of part and information (manuals). If you do
manage to get into eBike repair, it's likely to be as a 3rd party shop
using used replacement parts and reverse engineered manuals, exactly
as many Apple repair shops operate. They can do that simply because
the cost of replacement is less than the cost of repair.

Enough for now. Best of luck trying to find an answer to the central
problem. Where are we going to find the trained technicians needed to
repair today's increasingly complexicated electronics? If you find an
answer, I would appreciate a clue as to what it might be.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Years ago I took a television in for repair. The shop said that replacing a certain module MIGHT fix the problem. I asked them what if it didn't would I still have to pay for that module to which they said yes. I said forget that and took the television home.

I wonder if even regular bicycles are moving towards that with electronic shifting and the other electronic doo dads many people use.

Cheers

On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:52:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:00:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold.
(...)
We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Replace the entire system might be true if you were talking about an
eBike with everything in the wheel. However, other types of eBikes
tend to be modular and may offer some repair opportunities by
replacing modules. That's the current situation in the automobile
service business, where repairs often consist of replacing black boxes
or sub-assemblies. The off-the-street minimally trained technician
plugs a diagnostic interface into the vehicle and sends the collected
data to the manufacturers computer for analysis. This computer also
had data from all the other vehicles that might have similar problems.
The diagnostic results are returned to the minimally trained
technician in the form of a list or flow chart, where the most
probable fault is listed first, down to the faults of lower
probability. The service shop then finds a better trained technician
to replace black boxes starting with the those at the top of the list.
It's easy to see the problems with this method of repair, but it does
have one big advantage. The dealer does NOT need to hire a well
trained and experienced mechanic to troubleshoot the vehicle. While
replacing a few extra black boxes might be wasteful and expensive,
it's probably cheaper than the salary for the trained and experienced
mechanic.

I think I'd have to argue with this thesis a bit. Engines and to some
extent transmissions do have "black box" controls and the mechanic
plugs in a diagnostic machine to trouble shoot them. But there is the
rest of the car, and more and more, the power and transmission system
are becoming ultra reliable. During the past 20 years I have bought my
wife two cars, both Honda's, and during that 20 year period we have
had zero engine/transmission problems. The rest of the car, yes.
Brakes, suspension, fenders, etc., yes but no problem that could be
cured by plugging into a diagnostic terminal.

eBike can, and eventually will be serviced in a similar manner. Plug
a diagnostic interface cable into the eBike. The other end goes into
a modem or computah. The diagnostic data, performance history,
maintenance logs, recorded faults, serial numbers, etc are downloaded
from the eBike and sent off to the factory service center in China via
the internet, where the factory computer determines the likely
culprits. You then get to replace the suggested sub-assemblies,
modules, and black boxes in accordance with the provided directions,
using factory approved and supplied parts. This would probably be a
good place to insert a rant about "right to repair" but I'll resist
the temptation. Sufficient to say that you have to do it in the
manner specified by the factory or you lose your authorized service
center status. Notice that the factory computer does not bother
indicating how it derived its suggested replacements, what part of the
circuitry has failed, and even a clue how it all works. In other
words, you learn nothing from the repair.

Right to repair? Rather a false issue, at least in the commercial
sense. Some 20 years, or so, ago I installed a small gas processing
plant in Indonesia. The entire plant was managed by a central computer
with a built in diagnostic system. Enter the correct code and the
computer went into diagnostic mode and first checked itself, if that
system worked it began a check of every sensor and controller all over
the system. When it located a malfunctioning device it beeped and told
you what had failed and you scampered out and replaced it.

Repairing that system would have first, taken probably a day, with
multi-meter in hand to check each and every sensor and controller, if
not longer. A day's production for that plant was in excess of $10,000
so the owners were, rightly, rather resistant to the right to repair
idea :-)

While providing service and repairs on products that you sell, the
mass market manufacturers are not going to help you. Instead, they
will design products that are difficult to repair and control the
price and availability of part and information (manuals). If you do
manage to get into eBike repair, it's likely to be as a 3rd party shop
using used replacement parts and reverse engineered manuals, exactly
as many Apple repair shops operate. They can do that simply because
the cost of replacement is less than the cost of repair.

Enough for now. Best of luck trying to find an answer to the central
problem. Where are we going to find the trained technicians needed to
repair today's increasingly complexicated electronics? If you find an
answer, I would appreciate a clue as to what it might be.

This is not new. Some 50 years ago I had a 1/2 h.p. electric motor
fail and so took it to a motor repair shop, in Riverside, CA, and the
guy says, "What do you want me to do with that?" and I said, "It won't
run" and he said, "Buy a new one". We discussed it for a while and he
explained that for him to actually take the motor apart and repair it
would cost more that the purchase price of a new motor at Sears.

Ultimately he did check the starting capacitor and sold me a
replacement and told me how to change it myself :-)

The point is that in developed countries there is no need of skilled
craftsmen to "repair" anything, it isn't cost effective. As an
example, I read the other day that people working on the assembly line
at a car plant, in the U.S., made $30,00 an hour doing what is
essentially a semi skilled job. Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 23:10:48 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 November 2019 23:52:10 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:00:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold.
(...)
We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Replace the entire system might be true if you were talking about an
eBike with everything in the wheel. However, other types of eBikes
tend to be modular and may offer some repair opportunities by
replacing modules. That's the current situation in the automobile
service business, where repairs often consist of replacing black boxes
or sub-assemblies. The off-the-street minimally trained technician
plugs a diagnostic interface into the vehicle and sends the collected
data to the manufacturers computer for analysis. This computer also
had data from all the other vehicles that might have similar problems.
The diagnostic results are returned to the minimally trained
technician in the form of a list or flow chart, where the most
probable fault is listed first, down to the faults of lower
probability. The service shop then finds a better trained technician
to replace black boxes starting with the those at the top of the list.
It's easy to see the problems with this method of repair, but it does
have one big advantage. The dealer does NOT need to hire a well
trained and experienced mechanic to troubleshoot the vehicle. While
replacing a few extra black boxes might be wasteful and expensive,
it's probably cheaper than the salary for the trained and experienced
mechanic.

eBike can, and eventually will be serviced in a similar manner. Plug
a diagnostic interface cable into the eBike. The other end goes into
a modem or computah. The diagnostic data, performance history,
maintenance logs, recorded faults, serial numbers, etc are downloaded
from the eBike and sent off to the factory service center in China via
the internet, where the factory computer determines the likely
culprits. You then get to replace the suggested sub-assemblies,
modules, and black boxes in accordance with the provided directions,
using factory approved and supplied parts. This would probably be a
good place to insert a rant about "right to repair" but I'll resist
the temptation. Sufficient to say that you have to do it in the
manner specified by the factory or you lose your authorized service
center status. Notice that the factory computer does not bother
indicating how it derived its suggested replacements, what part of the
circuitry has failed, and even a clue how it all works. In other
words, you learn nothing from the repair.

While providing service and repairs on products that you sell, the
mass market manufacturers are not going to help you. Instead, they
will design products that are difficult to repair and control the
price and availability of part and information (manuals). If you do
manage to get into eBike repair, it's likely to be as a 3rd party shop
using used replacement parts and reverse engineered manuals, exactly
as many Apple repair shops operate. They can do that simply because
the cost of replacement is less than the cost of repair.

Enough for now. Best of luck trying to find an answer to the central
problem. Where are we going to find the trained technicians needed to
repair today's increasingly complexicated electronics? If you find an
answer, I would appreciate a clue as to what it might be.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Years ago I took a television in for repair. The shop said that replacing a certain module MIGHT fix the problem. I asked them what if it didn't would I still have to pay for that module to which they said yes. I said forget that and took the television home.

I wonder if even regular bicycles are moving towards that with electronic shifting and the other electronic doo dads many people use.

Cheers

:-) Do you wear a helmet? After all a helmet MIGHT protect you :-)

But re the electric doodads. Are they really necessary? Or are they
simply evidence that "style" is more important than content, so to
speak.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 03:24:17 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 23:10:48 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 November 2019 23:52:10 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:00:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold.
(...)
We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Replace the entire system might be true if you were talking about an
eBike with everything in the wheel. However, other types of eBikes
tend to be modular and may offer some repair opportunities by
replacing modules. That's the current situation in the automobile
service business, where repairs often consist of replacing black boxes
or sub-assemblies. The off-the-street minimally trained technician
plugs a diagnostic interface into the vehicle and sends the collected
data to the manufacturers computer for analysis. This computer also
had data from all the other vehicles that might have similar problems.
The diagnostic results are returned to the minimally trained
technician in the form of a list or flow chart, where the most
probable fault is listed first, down to the faults of lower
probability. The service shop then finds a better trained technician
to replace black boxes starting with the those at the top of the list.
It's easy to see the problems with this method of repair, but it does
have one big advantage. The dealer does NOT need to hire a well
trained and experienced mechanic to troubleshoot the vehicle. While
replacing a few extra black boxes might be wasteful and expensive,
it's probably cheaper than the salary for the trained and experienced
mechanic.

eBike can, and eventually will be serviced in a similar manner. Plug
a diagnostic interface cable into the eBike. The other end goes into
a modem or computah. The diagnostic data, performance history,
maintenance logs, recorded faults, serial numbers, etc are downloaded
from the eBike and sent off to the factory service center in China via
the internet, where the factory computer determines the likely
culprits. You then get to replace the suggested sub-assemblies,
modules, and black boxes in accordance with the provided directions,
using factory approved and supplied parts. This would probably be a
good place to insert a rant about "right to repair" but I'll resist
the temptation. Sufficient to say that you have to do it in the
manner specified by the factory or you lose your authorized service
center status. Notice that the factory computer does not bother
indicating how it derived its suggested replacements, what part of the
circuitry has failed, and even a clue how it all works. In other
words, you learn nothing from the repair.

While providing service and repairs on products that you sell, the
mass market manufacturers are not going to help you. Instead, they
will design products that are difficult to repair and control the
price and availability of part and information (manuals). If you do
manage to get into eBike repair, it's likely to be as a 3rd party shop
using used replacement parts and reverse engineered manuals, exactly
as many Apple repair shops operate. They can do that simply because
the cost of replacement is less than the cost of repair.

Enough for now. Best of luck trying to find an answer to the central
problem. Where are we going to find the trained technicians needed to
repair today's increasingly complexicated electronics? If you find an
answer, I would appreciate a clue as to what it might be.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Years ago I took a television in for repair. The shop said that replacing a certain module MIGHT fix the problem. I asked them what if it didn't would I still have to pay for that module to which they said yes. I said forget that and took the television home.

I wonder if even regular bicycles are moving towards that with electronic shifting and the other electronic doo dads many people use.

Cheers

:-) Do you wear a helmet? After all a helmet MIGHT protect you :-)

But re the electric doodads. Are they really necessary? Or are they
simply evidence that "style" is more important than content, so to
speak.
--
cheers,

John B.

Huh? What do helmets have to do with electric doo dads on bicycles? Things like electronic shifting aren't really user serviceable as far as I know.

Cheers

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 00:32:47 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 03:24:17 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 23:10:48 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 November 2019 23:52:10 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:00:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold.
(...)
We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Replace the entire system might be true if you were talking about an
eBike with everything in the wheel. However, other types of eBikes
tend to be modular and may offer some repair opportunities by
replacing modules. That's the current situation in the automobile
service business, where repairs often consist of replacing black boxes
or sub-assemblies. The off-the-street minimally trained technician
plugs a diagnostic interface into the vehicle and sends the collected
data to the manufacturers computer for analysis. This computer also
had data from all the other vehicles that might have similar problems.
The diagnostic results are returned to the minimally trained
technician in the form of a list or flow chart, where the most
probable fault is listed first, down to the faults of lower
probability. The service shop then finds a better trained technician
to replace black boxes starting with the those at the top of the list.
It's easy to see the problems with this method of repair, but it does
have one big advantage. The dealer does NOT need to hire a well
trained and experienced mechanic to troubleshoot the vehicle. While
replacing a few extra black boxes might be wasteful and expensive,
it's probably cheaper than the salary for the trained and experienced
mechanic.

eBike can, and eventually will be serviced in a similar manner. Plug
a diagnostic interface cable into the eBike. The other end goes into
a modem or computah. The diagnostic data, performance history,
maintenance logs, recorded faults, serial numbers, etc are downloaded
from the eBike and sent off to the factory service center in China via
the internet, where the factory computer determines the likely
culprits. You then get to replace the suggested sub-assemblies,
modules, and black boxes in accordance with the provided directions,
using factory approved and supplied parts. This would probably be a
good place to insert a rant about "right to repair" but I'll resist
the temptation. Sufficient to say that you have to do it in the
manner specified by the factory or you lose your authorized service
center status. Notice that the factory computer does not bother
indicating how it derived its suggested replacements, what part of the
circuitry has failed, and even a clue how it all works. In other
words, you learn nothing from the repair.

While providing service and repairs on products that you sell, the
mass market manufacturers are not going to help you. Instead, they
will design products that are difficult to repair and control the
price and availability of part and information (manuals). If you do
manage to get into eBike repair, it's likely to be as a 3rd party shop
using used replacement parts and reverse engineered manuals, exactly
as many Apple repair shops operate. They can do that simply because
the cost of replacement is less than the cost of repair.

Enough for now. Best of luck trying to find an answer to the central
problem. Where are we going to find the trained technicians needed to
repair today's increasingly complexicated electronics? If you find an
answer, I would appreciate a clue as to what it might be.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Years ago I took a television in for repair. The shop said that replacing a certain module MIGHT fix the problem. I asked them what if it didn't would I still have to pay for that module to which they said yes. I said forget that and took the television home.

I wonder if even regular bicycles are moving towards that with electronic shifting and the other electronic doo dads many people use.

Cheers

:-) Do you wear a helmet? After all a helmet MIGHT protect you :-)

But re the electric doodads. Are they really necessary? Or are they
simply evidence that "style" is more important than content, so to
speak.
--
cheers,

John B.

Huh? What do helmets have to do with electric doo dads on bicycles? Things like electronic shifting aren't really user serviceable as far as I know.

Cheers

They don't. I was replying to your first comment about, " replacing a
certain module MIGHT fix the problem" and you turned it down. And
asked if you wore a helmet, which MIGHT protect you.
--
cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:24:39 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 03:34:07 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:11:35 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we?re we?re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

That goes to show how unrealistic some people are. Put an electric
motor on the bike and gee! I'm just as fast as I was when I was
twenty...

Why not put on a bigger motor and Lo! One would be even faster than
they were at 20 :-) Or maybe an even larger motor and set records :-)
--
cheers,

John B.



Who the **** said anything about being faster than when they were 20?

No one, but someone did say, "People buying these are more likely
sports cyclists trying to maintain their levels. "

And I guessed that the "levels" would be what they were when they were
young and frisky, i.e., 20 years old , not what they were as they
coasted past 70, sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
--
cheers,

John B.



Their levels, to me meant last yearÂ’s levels before that surgery or
whatever.
Having had surgery and am still recovering I would hope my "level"
does get better.

Jeez I know a lot of people around 70 that are in better shape than that.

You know a lot of people around 70...Five? Ten? Assuming that you are
in the U.S. some 80% percent of the population doesn't even get
minimum levels of exercise, to say nothing of developing stamina.


More useless stats googled from Wikipedia? My bike club of 400 or so has
an average age of 60.

If you work try telling all your co-workers that you "just did a 50
mile bicycle ride on Sunday" and watch their faces. Half of them won't
believe you and the other half will recoil in amazement that anyone
could ride a bicycle such a tendentiously long distance.


They do. Except the ones that ride a bike.

Back when I was running I once mentioned, at work, that "I usually run
5 miles before breakfast four mornings a week" and people could hardly
believe it. FIVE MILES! Ohhh, so long!

Not sure what point you’re trying to make. No, most people don’t seem to
do much cardio.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 2:52:01 AM UTC, pH wrote:
snip

Apologies for the delay in replying. I saved the link to look into and got distracted by a discussion of tilting motorcycle (and bicycle) three wheelers on another forum.

The basic principle around which I developed my bike, a Utopia Kranich which was awesome even in the ex-factory trim -- see http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html -- is zero servicing. I've now got it down to five minutes a year to change the gearbox oil and give one shot of grease to its click box. That's it. I don't clean the chain because I run it on the factory lube for its entire life, inside a Hebie Chainglider. A description of how I arrived there is at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?

Sorry about the broken link. Try "Factory lube/chaincase experiment (X8 chain, Chainglider, Surly SS & Rohloff)" http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.0 instead.

That *is* a lovely machine. At first glance I wondered what that black disk was surrounding the chainring, but then got around to reading the text to discover that it's a fully enclosed chaincase. Slick!
Does it make any chain-rubbing noise when pedaling?

That's a Utopia Country. Those bellows you can see are consumable parts. The whole thing is absolutely silent and very clean, but a bit fragile and requires new bellows fitted every so often which is too much bother for me, so I replaced it with a Hebie Chainglider, which is simpler and sturdier and works equally well and is much simpler to set up to be as silent. The only enclosing chaincase I now recommend is the Hebie Chainglider. You can read about my adventures with chain cases, including the Country and the Chainglider at "A Fully Enclosed Chaincase That Works" http://thorncyclesforum.co..uk/index.php?topic=2233.0

The colour and pinstripes (just kidding! Coachlines) are lovely.

I can see that there is a lot to read on your website. Looks fun.

snip


I had not realized that 8Fun/Bafang made a hub motor until I read the first part of your install article. My chainring comment earlier of course makes no sense for a hub motor. (I do recall that there were some hubmotors w/ two-speed planetary gear...I'll have to go back and read more when I have a bit more time.)

I first installed a *front* hub motor because I suspected the centre motors available in 2009 weren't ready for prime time on my sort of bike. When centre motors became more sophisticated, about the time the hub motor gave up the ghost, I installed the Bafang centre motor. So your chainring remarks made perfect sense for the current Bafang centre motor fitted to my Kranich..

Is the front hub, then, 32H to match the Rohloff in the rear? (unless Rohloff has gone beyond 32H, that is)

You can now get Rohloff HGB with flanges drilled for 32 and 36 spokes, and a poster here, Chalo Colina, worked out a scheme for a 48 hole Rohloff rim, drilled for him by Aaron's Machine Shop (I don't know why he put the work out -- Chalo had been a toolmaker at Boeing, so marking out and drilling a rim would have been child's play for him). My Rohloff is spoked to a 32 hole rim, and the front wheel has 36 spokes to a SON hub dynamo. Those wheels were computer built and then post-tested by a manic obsessive, and I haven't touched them in ten years, nor expect ever to; they're the best wheels I've ever had, including a pair handbuilt for a prototype by Keith Bontrager, which are themselves pretty outstanding wheels.

I'm impressed that you have been carfree since '92.

Oh, I practice the conservationism I preach.

Your website looks good...must be a lot of work.

For the designer of the publisher who holds the rights to my books; fortunately not for me.

Andre Jute
High single digits, mid-single digits with wind chill included. To ride or not to ride.

On 11/5/2019 8:53 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:23:21 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Although there is or was a publication that evaluates different
things and rated them. Consumer Digest? Report? Anyway, they once
tested a bunch of cheap .22 rifles and downgraded them because they
were single shot. Which kind of put me off as at the time all cheap
.22 rifles were single shot :-)

The last article I read in that maganzine was a review of bicycles --
which stated that it would not review bikes that cost more than two
hundred dollars because easy-to-pedal bikes are strictly for people
who like to "torture themselves".

Two hundred dollars was a bit more money back then, but still not
enough to buy a decent bike new.

Right. And before that (1973? 1974?) they reviewed three
speed bicycles with four crappy department store BSOs and a
Raleigh Sports. They rated the Raleigh as 'unacceptable'
because the brake system was 'overly responsive'! Well, by
comparison perhaps but sheesh CR seemed almost proud of
knowing absolutely nothing about everything and intent on
proving that once a month.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/5/2019 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/5/2019 10:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 12:47:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not convinced that golf ever qualified as a "sport."
Even bowling is
more strenuous.

I put golf in the same category as billiards. Neither one
is a "sport."

"sport /spôrt/ noun: sport; plural noun: sports
1. an activity involving physical exertion and skill..."

I should have used a different example :-) In fact, for
whatever
reason, there is considerable controversy over the
question of whether
or not golf is a sport.

You do walk between 5 and 7 miles on most golf courses.

Not around here you don't! You sit down in a golf cart. You
walk maybe 30 feet before and after you swing or putt.

Full disclosu I adamantly gave up golf in my 20s. I was
so frustrated at shooting in the 40s, which I thought was
terrible.

Why? Because as a young guy, I spent a lot of time caddying
for, then playing against my dad. It wasn't until years
later that I realized 40s were considered OK. Then I thought
about all the golf trophies he had around the house... (He
broke par routinely.)

But then (to use a" Tom" and change the subject) is
bicycling a sport?
It can be but it is hardly sporting to ride down to the
corner store
to get a loaf of bread.

That's true. And one the wonderful things about cycling is
its versatility.

Not surprisingly, the "Danger! Danger!" crowd finds a way to
use that against bicycling. There have been many articles
that total the injuries from various "sports" like football,
basketball, etc. and bicycling. They point out that
bicycling's raw count of injuries is higher than almost all
"other sports."

Why is that so? Because the number of people and the amount
of time spent bicycling tremendously exceeds those for (say)
basketball. People ride for dozens of reasons, and only a
tiny proportion of bicycling really is "sport," in the sense
of competing against others.


I don't know and I don't have an opinion.

But there is a difference between activities with an actual
objective score or line (golf, time trials, marathons,
weight lifting, bowling etc) and interpretive activities
with 'judging' which are I think more in the realm of art or
recreation.

I had great respect for the initial MTB race organization
with a simple rule book. 'We all start here. First one
there wins.' This has nothing to do with why or how I ride
my own bicycles but it's clear and respectable.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971