Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Whitfit.

An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Sheldon "One Brake At A Time" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| It is good to learn from your mistakes; |
| It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

That's France for you (and other countries in Europe also) Roads less
travelled on get patched up after the winter with gravel and tar (It's
cheaper and quicker propably), It's better than pottholes though.

Peter

"Bill Davidson" wrote in message
news:JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03...
Sheldon Brown wrote:
Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not
pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

Yeah. It was a hard right turn on a fast winding descent. He and Lance
were trying to chase down Vinokourov so they were pushing it. Beloki's
back wheel slid out way to his left and then slid back to his right and
he fell down the hill sideways on his right side. It looked very very
painful. It was a sad thing to see. He was a big part of making this
year's tour interesting.

The way he slid, it did look like rear braking may have been at fault but
it's hard to tell for sure.

A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and making it
slippery. Who the hell still uses tar for pavement? I thought that went
out 50-60 years ago.

At least Lance came out unscathed; though his little cycle cross solution
to collision avoidance did cost him a little time to Vinokourov (though
obviously not as much as crashing would have).

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars
(based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly visible:
http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg

The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not the cause.


"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" wrote in message
. ..
From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not tubulars
(based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

"whitfit" wrote in message
om...
When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Whitfit.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM
Subject: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?


From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
tubulars
(based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly
visible:
http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg

The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not
the cause.


I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews
account and Armstrong stated that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the rear
wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had the same thing happen
to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then)
185 lbs down a hill near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to stay
upright, although my Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used as
outriggers!

"P. Hardewig @fuse.net" pjwignospam wrote in message
...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:47 PM
Subject: Beloki losing rear tire... Tubular problem?


From the photos, it appears that he was riding on clinchers, not
tubulars
(based on what looks very much like a Velox rimstrip on his wheel).

I'm pretty sure they're clinchers, the higher sidewalls are also clearly
visible:
http://www.velonews.com/images/details/4520.5461.f.jpg

The tyre getting of the rim is propably the result of the crash and not
the cause.


I think you're right about the clincher tire. I just read the Velonews
account and Armstrong stated that Beloki had locked up his brakes, the
rear
wheel started to slide and the tire blew. FWIW, I had the same thing
happen
to me about 20 years ago coming into a hard turn after screaming my (then)
185 lbs down a hill near Ft Ancient, OH. By some miracle, I managed to
stay
upright, although my Anquetil cleats lost a bit of depth from being used
as
outriggers!

Doubt very much those are clinchers; the day before they were on carbon-rim
tubulars; see http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/tech2.html for a look. The lighter
strip on the rim is either tire glue or more likely, the tire pulled away
from it's base tape under the strain of the crash and that's what you see.
I rolled a conti sprinter once back when they were prone to doing that, and
the remaining base tape looked just about like that.

I'd be more inclined to blame the notoriously spotty braking manners of
carbon rims. Bad road surface + hard-to-modulate brakes + tires that peel
off when you get 'em sideways = big ouch. Just speculation of course, but
it wouldn't be the first time that compromising function for light weight
put a rider on the deck. Just ask Tyler...

As an aside, this is the first year Beloki hasn't used a 650-wheeled bike in
the mountains. Last year when they first rode the carbon TCR's, he was the
only guy on Once to still use a special aluminum bike with smaller wheels on
the climbing stages - a holdover from the days of Jalabert, who used them in
the mountains until his retirement.

From what I heard after the fact, from Phil & Paul, was that Beloky
started to slide on a soft patch of tar and panic-braked (both wheels) I
was watching the 5 PM replay, so they had more info at this time.

The rear tire blew and came off (very likely, especially if he was on
clinchers). The bare rim dug into the tar, causing a violent reverse
fishtail which hurled him over the handlebars, as he was unable to
compensate in time.

This is what it looked like what happened. In the slo-mo, you can see
him sliding, a rear wheel slide which he is in control over. Then the
tire comes off, the bike whips back and he goes head over handlebars.

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

In article ,
Sheldon Brown wrote:

An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Big Mig used clinchers in the mountains, presumably for this reason as
a large and heavy rider he was going to be braking hard.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

The video clip I saw on the evening news showed a dramatic fishtail-
almost sideways in one direction, then the other, and *boom* he hit
the pavement hard. Followed by Armstrong plowing off the road and
through a field basically down the fall line, then hopping off the
bike and running onto the road and remounting. Not quite with the
smooth cyclo-cross style of, say, Daniele Pontoni or Adri van der
Poel, but entertaining none the less. He must have been ****ting
bricks!

In article JyFQa.23$He.15@fed1read03,
Bill Davidson wrote:

A lot of people were talking about tar on the road melting and
making it slippery. Who the hell still uses tar for pavement? I
thought that went out 50-60 years ago

When I was in the Alps last summer, it looked like the seam patches
were tar with some sort of greenish sand on top rather than asphalt
mix.

Sheldon Brown at wrote on 7/14/03 2:22 PM:

An anonymous poster wrote:

When reading that Beloki had rolled his rear tire, it brought to mind
two things; first, Jobst's assertions that tubulars are bad in the
alps due to melting glue, and second, that heavy rear braking in that
situation has been discussed as a bad thing in this group. He was
also using an 18mm tire. Interesting, when some using clinchers don't
seem slowed at all, and he might not have so many broken bones with
them.

Could be, but it could also be that the rolled tub was effect, not pause.

I haven't seen the video yet, but it was mentioned that he had
fishtailed. This suggests to me that he may have used his rear brake
when he shouldn't have.

Hard to say, as the footage was all from the helicopter. It was, however, a
brutal crash - went down hard on his leg/hip, slid for way too long on his
elbow and whip-snapped his shoulder and head down onto the pavement.

Reports have him with a broken femur and elbow.

How it appeared on the OLN feed this AM:

Vino was about 15 seconds ahead at the crest of the hill, and was descending
like a madman. Reported ambient temps were low-to-mid-90's (F). Comments
had been made about the "softness" of the French roads in this region.

Beloki was leading Armstrong, who had five or six riders behind him. The
verbal time gap was given as 13 seconds.

Vinokourov approaches the "double bowknot" set of horseshoe turns on fairly
narrow roads. This will be where Beloki goes down. The screen computer
shows a 10 second gap.

The moto camera was behind Vinokourov as he went through that section - you
can see very shiny spots on the roadway as Vino speeds through the 90 degree
left before the double bowknot. Phil states that you can see the melted
spots in the roadway, and as Vino makes it through continues, "..that was a
rather dodgy corner". The moto camera seems to slow and shift a bit, as
the cameraman has trouble keep Vino in the frame.

Then the problems begin.

Armstrong seems to drop back from Beloki, who continues pressing into the
turn. As he begins to set for the turn he is closer to the center of the
road than Armstrong.

He fishtales left, and Armstrong begins to make up ground, as though Beloki
has hit the brakes.

The skid continues, rear tire breaking further to his left until it is
obscured by Beloki's seated body. The bike seems to continue sliding out to
the left, as evidenced by his body english. He has the front of the bike
pointed well to recover, although it isn't clear he would make the turn at
this point.

While the rear wheel is behind his body (bike angled maybe 30-40 degrees),
the tire appears behind him. It has come off the rim at this point.
Definitely moves off the rim and is visible as a separate object.

The rear rim must've dug in, as at this point, it becomes airborne, swinging
through the air to a nearly 30 degree angle to the right of Beloki. It
knifes down into the tarmac and the bike's forward motion is arrested.

At this point, the bike swings over the rear rim, Beloki comes down hard on
his right leg and the damage progresses.

Armstrong in a post race interviews described Beloki as hitting the brakes
hard, then locking up the rear, then rolling the tire, which seems
consistent with the images.

Sad, sad stuff....

-- Jim

http://www.cyclfiend.com
http://lists.cyclofiend.com/mailman/...fo/race-report