Cellulose stronger than steel. Wood pulp stronger than CF.

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 9:27:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/4/2016 11:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 10:37:48 -0000 (UTC), Edmund
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 18:05:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Wood pulp extract stronger than carbon fiber or Kevlar"
http://www.gizmag.com/cellulose-nano...-carbon-fiber-
kevlar/23959/
Prepared properly, CNCs are stronger and stiffer than Kevlar or
carbon fibers...

"Biodegradable fibers as strong as steel made from wood cellulose"
http://www.gizmag.com/steel-strong-fibers-wood-cellulose/32432/
...claim to have developed a way to make cellulose fibers stronger
than steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

Soon everyone will be riding on wood pulp or cellulose fiber bicycles.

Without reading the article :

Just read between the lines.

Stronger then steel on a strength to weight basis isn't very spectacular
and no reason at all to use on a bicycle.

Strength to weight ratio is also known as specific strength:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_strength
Click on the "specific strength" column heading to sort by specific
strength. Scraping the data for cycling relevant materials:

Material Specific Strength
kN-m/kg
Carbon Fiber 2457
Glass Fiber 1307
Balsa Wood 521
Bainite 321
Titanium 228
Aluminum 204 (7075-T6)
Stainless Steel 63.1 (304)

Simple Alu is at least twice as strong as steel on a strength to weight
basis.

Nope. Bainite and 7075-T6 are about the strongest steel and aluminum
alloys available. Looks like steel is about 50% stronger on the basis
of tensile strength to weight ratio.

To revitalize cycling, what is needed is a new frame material. While
once considered an exotic frame material, aluminum is now a
commonplace commodity. Carbon fiber, titanium, and magnesium are too
expensive. Bamboo and wood frames are more of an art form than
anything practical. Because of the manual labor content, they're also
expensive. Plastic has been limited to concept bikes for many years.
So, what's left?

I suggest a blown glass bicycle frame. Tempered glass can be made
very strong using thermal stress hardening. As long as you don't
crash, a glass frame should hold together. Glass parts can be easily
welded together with a gas torch. Same with frame alignment.
Obviously, some research into problems like being invisible in traffic
will need to be performed.



Reading between the lines, as you suggest, leads us to
consider that there are different kinds of 'strength'.
Classically, oaks snap in storms which only bend willows.

Light and durable can be hard to sell without enough
torsional stiffness for example and also ultra-thin aluminum
with wall to diameter beyond about 1:55 is prone to
'beer-can' failures, etc. There's no simple 'best'.

Wrong again! Cannondale. It is the best bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUb--qAT7Aw

-- Jay Beattie.

On 1/4/2016 2:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 9:27:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/4/2016 11:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 10:37:48 -0000 (UTC), Edmund
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 18:05:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Wood pulp extract stronger than carbon fiber or Kevlar"
http://www.gizmag.com/cellulose-nano...-carbon-fiber-
kevlar/23959/
Prepared properly, CNCs are stronger and stiffer than Kevlar or
carbon fibers...

"Biodegradable fibers as strong as steel made from wood cellulose"
http://www.gizmag.com/steel-strong-fibers-wood-cellulose/32432/
...claim to have developed a way to make cellulose fibers stronger
than steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

Soon everyone will be riding on wood pulp or cellulose fiber bicycles.

Without reading the article :

Just read between the lines.

Stronger then steel on a strength to weight basis isn't very spectacular
and no reason at all to use on a bicycle.

Strength to weight ratio is also known as specific strength:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_strength
Click on the "specific strength" column heading to sort by specific
strength. Scraping the data for cycling relevant materials:

Material Specific Strength
kN-m/kg
Carbon Fiber 2457
Glass Fiber 1307
Balsa Wood 521
Bainite 321
Titanium 228
Aluminum 204 (7075-T6)
Stainless Steel 63.1 (304)

Simple Alu is at least twice as strong as steel on a strength to weight
basis.

Nope. Bainite and 7075-T6 are about the strongest steel and aluminum
alloys available. Looks like steel is about 50% stronger on the basis
of tensile strength to weight ratio.

To revitalize cycling, what is needed is a new frame material. While
once considered an exotic frame material, aluminum is now a
commonplace commodity. Carbon fiber, titanium, and magnesium are too
expensive. Bamboo and wood frames are more of an art form than
anything practical. Because of the manual labor content, they're also
expensive. Plastic has been limited to concept bikes for many years.
So, what's left?

I suggest a blown glass bicycle frame. Tempered glass can be made
very strong using thermal stress hardening. As long as you don't
crash, a glass frame should hold together. Glass parts can be easily
welded together with a gas torch. Same with frame alignment.
Obviously, some research into problems like being invisible in traffic
will need to be performed.



Reading between the lines, as you suggest, leads us to
consider that there are different kinds of 'strength'.
Classically, oaks snap in storms which only bend willows.

Light and durable can be hard to sell without enough
torsional stiffness for example and also ultra-thin aluminum
with wall to diameter beyond about 1:55 is prone to
'beer-can' failures, etc. There's no simple 'best'.

Wrong again! Cannondale. It is the best bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUb--qAT7Aw

-- Jay Beattie.


Well, there you have it. We Italians take physics and
everything else as a 'suggestion' not a 'rule'.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 05/01/16 03:17, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 10:37:48 -0000 (UTC), Edmund
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 18:05:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Wood pulp extract stronger than carbon fiber or Kevlar"
http://www.gizmag.com/cellulose-nano...-carbon-fiber-
kevlar/23959/
Prepared properly, CNCs are stronger and stiffer than Kevlar or
carbon fibers...

"Biodegradable fibers as strong as steel made from wood cellulose"
http://www.gizmag.com/steel-strong-fibers-wood-cellulose/32432/
...claim to have developed a way to make cellulose fibers stronger
than steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

Soon everyone will be riding on wood pulp or cellulose fiber bicycles.

Without reading the article :

Just read between the lines.

Stronger then steel on a strength to weight basis isn't very spectacular
and no reason at all to use on a bicycle.

Strength to weight ratio is also known as specific strength:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_strength
Click on the "specific strength" column heading to sort by specific
strength. Scraping the data for cycling relevant materials:

Material Specific Strength
kN-m/kg
Carbon Fiber 2457
Glass Fiber 1307
Balsa Wood 521
Bainite 321
Titanium 228
Aluminum 204 (7075-T6)
Stainless Steel 63.1 (304)

Simple Alu is at least twice as strong as steel on a strength to weight
basis.

Nope. Bainite and 7075-T6 are about the strongest steel and aluminum
alloys available. Looks like steel is about 50% stronger on the basis
of tensile strength to weight ratio.


The value for carbon fibre is a little misleading I suspect. I doubt it
takes into account the mass of the glue used to keep the fibres together
- without which Carbon Fibre is not very useful.

Balsa Wood however....

--
JS

On 05/01/16 03:51, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


Personally, I think the major progress will be in layered frame tubing
material. Layers of different materials, each optimized for the best
characteristics of the material, and combined to demonstrate that
characteristic under specific conditions.

Old news.

Renovo mix wood species in layers to customise stiffness.

I've also seen a bicycle tube set that has a CFRP inner tube with a
steel tube on the outer.

--
JS

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 5:28:49 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 18:10:37 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 2:05:01 AM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
"Wood pulp extract stronger than carbon fiber or Kevlar"
http://www.gizmag.com/cellulose-nanocrystals-stronger-carbon-fiber-kevlar/23959/
Prepared properly, CNCs are stronger and stiffer than
Kevlar or carbon fibers...

"Biodegradable fibers as strong as steel made from wood cellulose"
http://www.gizmag.com/steel-strong-fibers-wood-cellulose/32432/
...claim to have developed a way to make cellulose fibers
stronger than steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

Soon everyone will be riding on wood pulp or cellulose fiber bicycles.

Papier mache bicycles. Lovely. I shall be the world's leading expert.

So, which cardboard bicycle are you going to buy, build, or clone?
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=cardboard+bicycle
In sufficient quantity, these paper bicycles can be made very cheaply.

Origami bicycles.

My wife for her flower arranging with whole churches as her vases buys 8x4 sheets of plastic corrugated "cardboard" to hang over choir loft balustrades. That stuff is waterproof; we've had a piece outside in the rain for several years now and it wipes clean and is good as new. Arrange two pieces with the corrugations at 90 degrees to each other, or across whatever direction the stress arrives, and you have a cheap loadbearing structure to which you can bond metal components. Also overcomes the labour problem with wood, as this bicycle (for instance) can be cut and folded by machine with well-known packaging technology. There's a section on packaging design in my standard reprographics text -- Andre Jute: GRIDS, the structure of graphic design, Rotovision, Geneva, 1996, in the States published by Watson-Guptill, umpteen Spanish editions, other translations, the German translation Arbeiten mit Gestaltungsrastern: Die Struktur im Graphik-Design being particularly nicely produced by Hermann Schmidt Verlag, Mainz. Those cardboard bikes you posit can be made even cheaper by printing advertising on them, or even embedding cheap LEDs tied to a little wi-fi receiver to have centrally controlled (and paid for, the most important part...) advertising linked to the location and population the rider is cycling through, even personalized to individuals. ("Hello there, Jeff. Have you tried the new Intel Corkscrew Chip yet?")

They also solve the bicycle parking and theft problem. When you
arrive, instead of locking your bicycle to an immovable object, you
simply remove the wheels and metal parts, set fire to the cardboard
frame, and go about your business. For the return trip, you purchase
an "insert tab A into slot B" type cardboard frame from a street
vendor and reassemble the wheels and metal parts.

First the dream, then the work, then the wealth, then the philanthropy.

Hmmm... I forgot to mention my inflatable bicycle.

I like that one too. Bound to be plenty of ******s in the peanut gallery with pins though.

An expert is a guy who tells everyone else what to ride while
he sticks to his comfortable old steel bike.

See, for that you can charge president-class consulting fees and expenses. And patronize everyone because your bicycle is saving the world for the cockroaches, right?

Do like I say, not like I do.

But this sort of blunt speaking you have to save for after they tearfully present you with the Rolex. Of course, I would use the proper English: "Do as I say, not as I do."

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Andre Jute
Don't mess with me. I have a Big Brother.

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 9:17:13 PM UTC, James wrote:
On 05/01/16 03:51, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


Personally, I think the major progress will be in layered frame tubing
material. Layers of different materials, each optimized for the best
characteristics of the material, and combined to demonstrate that
characteristic under specific conditions.

Old news.

Renovo mix wood species in layers to customise stiffness.

I've also seen a bicycle tube set that has a CFRP inner tube with a
steel tube on the outer.

--
JS

Personally, I would rather have a beautiful Renovo wood bike that looks like a bike than any of the probably more efficient and less costly alternatives that use the wood qua wood to greater technical effect, for instance as sheets of vertical marine ply, but look odd.

Andre Jute
Aesthete

On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 18:05:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Soon everyone will be riding on wood pulp or cellulose fiber bicycles.

Well, hopefully they'll be able to ride more regularly.



Ba-dum bump. Happy New Year, folks. Try the rigatoni. I'll be here
all week.

On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 09:17:31 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 10:37:48 -0000 (UTC), Edmund
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 18:05:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

"Wood pulp extract stronger than carbon fiber or Kevlar"
http://www.gizmag.com/cellulose-nano...-carbon-fiber-
kevlar/23959/
Prepared properly, CNCs are stronger and stiffer than Kevlar or
carbon fibers...

"Biodegradable fibers as strong as steel made from wood cellulose"
http://www.gizmag.com/steel-strong-fibers-wood-cellulose/32432/
...claim to have developed a way to make cellulose fibers stronger
than steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

Soon everyone will be riding on wood pulp or cellulose fiber bicycles.

Without reading the article :

Just read between the lines.

Stronger then steel on a strength to weight basis isn't very spectacular
and no reason at all to use on a bicycle.

Strength to weight ratio is also known as specific strength:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_strength
Click on the "specific strength" column heading to sort by specific
strength. Scraping the data for cycling relevant materials:

Material Specific Strength
kN-m/kg
Carbon Fiber 2457 Glass Fiber 1307 Balsa Wood 521
Bainite 321 Titanium 228 Aluminum 204
(7075-T6)
Stainless Steel 63.1 (304)

Simple Alu is at least twice as strong as steel on a strength to weight
basis.

Nope. Bainite and 7075-T6 are about the strongest steel and aluminum
alloys available. Looks like steel is about 50% stronger on the basis
of tensile strength to weight ratio.

Well I don't know what Bainite is but in general it seems my rule of the
thumb is not so wrong, I see (stainless) steel 63.1 VS alu 204.
So that more then twice as much, which is what I said just to stipulate
the fact that beating (ordinary) steel in strength to weight isn't such
an accomplishment.

Edmund

On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:45:58 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 5:28:49 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

So, which cardboard bicycle are you going to buy, build, or clone?
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=cardboard+bicycle
In sufficient quantity, these paper bicycles can be made very cheaply.

Origami bicycles.

Well, if it's made from rice paper, you could eat the bicycle frame
should the need arise. Edible-cycles.

Japanese and Chinese paper armor:
https://www.google.com/search?q=paper+armor&tbm=isch
Strong and light.

My wife for her flower arranging with whole churches as her vases
buys 8x4 sheets of plastic corrugated "cardboard" to hang over choir
loft balustrades. That stuff is waterproof; we've had a piece outside
in the rain for several years now and it wipes clean and is good as
new. Arrange two pieces with the corrugations at 90 degrees to each
other, or across whatever direction the stress arrives, and you have
a cheap loadbearing structure to which you can bond metal components.

Yep. However, if you go one step further, and use molded or vacuum
formed plastic sheets, you end up with some of the futuristic bicycle
frames that I've been promoting for several years in this newsgroup
with very little effect.

First the dream, then the work, then the wealth, then the philanthropy.

That's not the modern way. First we do a science fiction concept,
product release, and web page. Next, we attract investors,
speculators, and crowdfunders. Then, we produce some half-finished
and buggy prototypes to unload onto the early adopters. At the same
time, we apply for a patent. The product is never really produced,
but a good time is had by all suing everyone within range. Wealth
arrives when a real company actually does want to produce a similar
product, and has to pay us off to make us go away. Philanthropy is a
good thing, but only if it's tax deductible. Welcome to the 21st
century.

Hmmm... I forgot to mention my inflatable bicycle.

I like that one too. Bound to be plenty of ******s in the peanut
gallery with pins though.

Sure. There are critics everywhere. If the danger of running over a
****** with a pin in hand is so great, then my inflatable bicycle
should be banned by the authorities, which will surely improve it's
popularity. Nothing increases sales so much as making it illegal to
own.

An expert is a guy who tells everyone else what to ride while
he sticks to his comfortable old steel bike.

See, for that you can charge president-class consulting fees and
expenses. And patronize everyone because your bicycle is saving
the world for the cockroaches, right?

Actually, I may eventually become famous for something more mundane.
I've been using the term "computah" for at least 30 years on Usenet. A
Google search for the word now produces 4,880,000 hits, approximately
double that of two years ago. Unfortunately, there's no obvious way
for me to monetize such abuse of the English language, so I'll have to
settle for the notoriety. A speaking tour on the topic of word
mutilation is in the planning stage.

Do like I say, not like I do.

But this sort of blunt speaking you have to save for after they
tearfully present you with the Rolex. Of course, I would use
the proper English: "Do as I say, not as I do."

I sit corrected and I think you might mean an Apple Watch instead of a
Rolex.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 1:51:12 AM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:45:58 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
wrote:

I sit corrected and I think you might mean an Apple Watch instead of a
Rolex.

Heh-heh. I don't wear a watch but I suppose I could strap a free Apple watch to the handlebars of my bike to report my heart rate from my Polar H7 sensor. See right at the bottom: http://coolmainpress.com/andrejutewatches.html

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Congratulations on "computah".

Andre Jute