|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#81
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:42:50 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/20/2020 12:18 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 6:55:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: There's no giant conspiracy [to pass a MHL in Oregon] because you already have a helmet law in Oregon. You're just not part of the group subject to it. But there's constant social pressure to maintain the meme that "Of _course_ you must wear a helmet!" And if you ride into Washington State, you may find yourself in violation of a MHL. Yes, its true, I'm over the age of 16. So every parent is now expected to tell their kids "Riding a bike is really dangerous. You are NOT allowed to ever ride without wearing a helmet!" Luckily, I sired a non-stupid child. My son understood that there were rules to follow and did not get hysterical about wearing a helmet or the risks of cycling. There were times when he did not wear a helmet -- like our usual store run when I don't wear a helmet either. He also went through a phase when he didn't wear a helmet sometimes because of high school hair issues. Ah, the good old days: https://attheu.utah.edu/home-page/be...alt-lake-city/ At Specialized, I think he can get a helmet for like $1. He's seen his friends injured and has had spills of his own racing and riding, so he generally wears a helmet when he rides. If my local experience is any indication, that means a bunch of parents will say "Look, why don't you do something else instead?" And a bunch of kids will say "Screw it, if I have to wear that dorky hat, I'm not riding.." And this is portrayed as benign? Hasn't cut down or ridership in Portland. https://www.portlandoregon.gov/trans...article/407660 To you, it is an end-of-world issue. To the cycling population in PDX -- its meaningless. Kids are used to wearing helmets, and people over 16 do what they want. Well, perhaps you wouldn't, because you wouldn't dare ride without a helmet. Yes, because I'm just some frady cat, and you're a bare-head hero! No, because you've bought into the hype and made it part of your uniform. Honestly, I'm pretty sure you're braver than I am. I can tell that by your tales of crashes. Yes, like falling into a submerged pot hole and going OTB. I should have had Garmin sonar on my bike -- or going down on a patch of invisible black ice in front of my office. I've crashed riding at walking speed over a board-slat MUP bridge that was slimy (which now has indoor-outdoor carpet on it).. This was ordinary riding/commuting and not crazy risk taking. ... I started wearing a helmet full time with the USCF rule change and pestering from my now wife. Requests (not pestering) from my wife was what got me originally wearing one. After years of commuting in a small city, we moved here and she said "If you're going to commute in this [bigger] city I'd like you to wear a helmet." I agreed to her wishes to lessen her worries. Since then, I've learned a lot, and she's heard quite a bit of it. She occasionally wears a helmet "because mine is pretty!" She never asks me to. It hasn't caused me any emotional distress, unlike some. Apparently it doesn't cause you intellectual distress either. Nope. My helmets have paid off. It's the intellectually right move for me. Maybe not for you. But there are plenty of cyclists who could get prosecuted for perfectly reasonable behavior. Prosecuted? You men a ticket (that doesn't go against your license and can't be used for rating your insurnce)? Are you implying that's no trouble at all, and people shouldn't fuss about it? No more than they should fuss about the ten-bazillion other things for which you can get a ticket from a municipality. We were talking about the local Washington MHLs -- which are ordinances and not state laws. We don't have those ordinances here in PDX, but we do have the state MHL for kids under 16, which doesn't seem to be keeping kids off bikes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4FO_9rKLO4 How are you doing there in helmet free Ohio? This is one of my nearby climbs with a typical Portland driver. You would wear a helmet, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fzwm4m3ZFI Note at about 1:00 into the video, the driver is wearing a helmet. By some of the bike helmet promotion logic, every motorist should strap on a full face helmet before pulling out of the driveway. "Racers wear a helmet, so you should too!" Uh, no -- most drivers are not drifting up Rock Point which, in some places, just falls off a cliff. BTW, that descent on a bike is very helmet worthy, particularly on wet pavement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 I have worse descents just coming home from work, although much shorter -- but over broken concrete that has worn to polished aggregate over the last 100 years. Check out the pavement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRnwgPa6rM&app=desktop Coming down that is nasty, and its super slippery when wet. We have trails and hills and broken roads and all sorts of things that might be absent in your village. Riding through rain lakes with hidden pot holes is a real thing. https://bikeportland.org/2015/12/07/...ing-you-169786 -- Jay Beattie. |
Ads |
#82
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
On 1/20/2020 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/20/2020 12:06 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, 20 January 2020 09:36:47 UTC-5, Duane wrote: I have no confidence that a bike helmet with prevent concussions. Hell football helmets don't and they're a lot stronger than bike helmets. Both may mitigate the damage but I wouldn't depend on it. Okay I agree with you about helmets and concussions. When I saw the deep dent on the temple area of my helmet I sure was glad that I had the helmet on that ride. A fellow not riding with us, who was behind us, saw me fall and bounce and was ready to key in 911. He couldn't believe that I just got up, checked my bicycle, rinsed off my scrapes on the arms and shoulder and was ready to continue my ride. At the very least I didn't have scrapes on my head where scrapes usually bleed quite freely. I'm just glad that the helmet was there to take the impact instead of my temple taking that impact. Let me describe an incident I saw and posted here over ten years ago. We had just had dinner with several friends at a nice restaurant in a big city. We were walking back to our cars. Ahead, a tour bus was parked at the opposite curb. A car was in the process of passing the parked tour bus. Just as the car got to the front end of the bus, a young guy came zooming across the street directly in front of the car. There was no way the driver could avoid him. From our position behind the car, we heard a huge BANG! and saw the young guy's body fly up into the air, upside down. His head was higher than the roof of the car. Later we heard that he landed on his head on the street. I immediately turned around and sprinted back to the restaurant to call 911 and report a probable fatality; then I ran up to the site of the crash, where the driver was upset and sobbing. The front of her car was badly mangled and her windshield was broken. But there was no dead body. Instead, the college kid she hit was sitting on a low wall at the sidewalk, his head being held immobile by an off-duty emergency medical technician who happened to see the crash. Very soon, an ambulance crew arrived, immobilized the guy on a stretcher and took him to ER. A cop took statements from us witnesses. The young guy? He had a slight cut above his right ear, with almost no bleeding. It seemed to be from the windshield wiper. He was the one who said he landed on his head after the crash. But he was fine. I phoned the next day in case he had died or something, and my testimony might be needed. They said he attended classes as usual and had only a minor headache. The weird part? He was NOT wearing a helmet. Even weirder, nobody - not the EMT, not the ambulance guys, not the cop, none of the witnesses - said he should have been wearing one. That's because he was a pedestrian, not a bicyclist. He had jogged out from the front of that bus. And even though pedestrians have far more serious TBI (in total or per mile traveled) nobody said he needed a helmet. But if he had worn one? Why, it would be smashed. It would have been absolute proof that it "saved his life." It might have made its way into a newspaper article, or be on display in a pedestrian protective gear shop - like a couple of bike helmets I've seen. (Have people noticed there are not mandatory pedestrian helmet laws even for kids?) I don't doubt you. Our local news also periodically covers minor slips and falls on ice with much less impact but yet fatal. We all have our favorite anecdotes which, even when each true and complete, are not dispositive to any larger trend or principle. If one mocks 'helmet saved my life', then 'no helmet, didn't die' is equally unconvincing. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#83
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/20/2020 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/20/2020 12:06 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, 20 January 2020 09:36:47 UTC-5, Duane wrote: I have no confidence that a bike helmet with prevent concussions. Hell football helmets don't and they're a lot stronger than bike helmets. Both may mitigate the damage but I wouldn't depend on it. Okay I agree with you about helmets and concussions. When I saw the deep dent on the temple area of my helmet I sure was glad that I had the helmet on that ride. A fellow not riding with us, who was behind us, saw me fall and bounce and was ready to key in 911. He couldn't believe that I just got up, checked my bicycle, rinsed off my scrapes on the arms and shoulder and was ready to continue my ride. At the very least I didn't have scrapes on my head where scrapes usually bleed quite freely. I'm just glad that the helmet was there to take the impact instead of my temple taking that impact. Let me describe an incident I saw and posted here over ten years ago. We had just had dinner with several friends at a nice restaurant in a big city. We were walking back to our cars. Ahead, a tour bus was parked at the opposite curb. A car was in the process of passing the parked tour bus. Just as the car got to the front end of the bus, a young guy came zooming across the street directly in front of the car. There was no way the driver could avoid him. From our position behind the car, we heard a huge BANG! and saw the young guy's body fly up into the air, upside down. His head was higher than the roof of the car. Later we heard that he landed on his head on the street. I immediately turned around and sprinted back to the restaurant to call 911 and report a probable fatality; then I ran up to the site of the crash, where the driver was upset and sobbing. The front of her car was badly mangled and her windshield was broken. But there was no dead body. Instead, the college kid she hit was sitting on a low wall at the sidewalk, his head being held immobile by an off-duty emergency medical technician who happened to see the crash. Very soon, an ambulance crew arrived, immobilized the guy on a stretcher and took him to ER. A cop took statements from us witnesses. The young guy? He had a slight cut above his right ear, with almost no bleeding. It seemed to be from the windshield wiper. He was the one who said he landed on his head after the crash. But he was fine. I phoned the next day in case he had died or something, and my testimony might be needed. They said he attended classes as usual and had only a minor headache. The weird part? He was NOT wearing a helmet. Even weirder, nobody - not the EMT, not the ambulance guys, not the cop, none of the witnesses - said he should have been wearing one. That's because he was a pedestrian, not a bicyclist. He had jogged out from the front of that bus. And even though pedestrians have far more serious TBI (in total or per mile traveled) nobody said he needed a helmet. But if he had worn one? Why, it would be smashed. It would have been absolute proof that it "saved his life." It might have made its way into a newspaper article, or be on display in a pedestrian protective gear shop - like a couple of bike helmets I've seen. (Have people noticed there are not mandatory pedestrian helmet laws even for kids?) I don't doubt you. Our local news also periodically covers minor slips and falls on ice with much less impact but yet fatal. We all have our favorite anecdotes which, even when each true and complete, are not dispositive to any larger trend or principle. If one mocks 'helmet saved my life', then 'no helmet, didn't die' is equally unconvincing. +1 |
#84
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
On 1/20/2020 2:00 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 20 January 2020 12:47:09 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/20/2020 5:00 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: A number of years ago I wiped out with such force that my helmeted head bounced off the pavement twice and had a very nice dent in the temple area. Frank's response to my post about that incident was if I had not been wearing the helmet my head would not have struck the pavement. It's amazing what Frank can see from thousands of miles or thousands of kilometers away from every incident. No, Sir, you're falsely portraying what I said. My phrasing on these matters is very careful. Dig out a direct quote, instead of paraphrasing it for your straw man purposes - or more charitably, paraphrasing it due to your imperfect memory. -- - Frank Krygowski Okay, you stated: "More briefly, many helmet hits would be near misses with bare heads, and many hard helmet hits would be gentle hits of a bare head." and: And you may be correct. That is, you may be the unusual person who correctly assessed the severity of the impact your helmet sustained; and you may also be the unusual person who can correctly tell that the impact of your bare head would have caused serious injury. and: "It seems much more likely that most dented helmets are not proof a serious head would have occurred. Instead, it's proof that if you put something oversized and fragile on your head, you're likely to bump it eventually. You can probably demonstrate the same thing by wearing your helmet 24 hours a day. My bet is you'll dent it getting in and out of your car, looking for cooking pots in your kitchen cabinets, working in your garage, carrying your ladder, hiking in the woods, etc" and so on but I have better things to do than argue with you when you start ranting about people choosing to wear a helmet. Thank you for your honesty, in posting direct quotes that disproved what you said about me earlier. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#85
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:25:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 1/19/2020 10:39 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 22:25:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/19/2020 2:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is very unlikely that bicycle helmets will disappear or be outlawed in the foreseeable future. Even if some neutral organization could be found to sponsor a long term study proving that bicycle helmets cause some accidents, are unsafe, and generally fail to deliver on advertised promises, bicycle helmets will not disappear from the market or from general use. That's because the PERCEPTION of safety is what sells bicycle helmets. To the GUM (great unwashed masses), one is simply not riding safely without a bicycle helmet. I admit, I'm hoping for a sudden epidemic of acute rationality. Heck, I'd be satisfied with slowly increasing chronic rationality. I'm hoping that gradually, people will begin saying "Wait a minute, the data shows there's just not much head injury risk in riding a bike." And perhaps "It looks like bike helmets really aren't doing much good." It's not impossible. The idealists who want to promote bicycling so people stop driving cars are beginning to say "Helmet laws are counterproductive" and sometimes even saying "Helmets aren't needed." They're pointing out facts like tens of millions of American bike share trips, with a total of only one fatality ever. They're actively countering some of the worst nonsense. I don't agree with everything these people say, but I think they're right about MHLs. https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/01/...-laws-are-bad/ I've always been of the opinion that making laws to ensure people act safe is the wrong way to approach the subject. I would rather see something that obviously penalized the individual such as "if you aren't wearing a helmet your hospitalization is null and void". I guess you mean "your hospitalization insurance"? If so, I'd agree ONLY if that were applied to absolutely everyone who appeared at a hospital with a head injury. Not just bicyclists. I'll note that statements like yours are not uncommon in helmet rants on the internet, especially when non-cyclists post in comments on news articles. But those non-cyclists always aim that prejudiced proposal ONLY at bicyclists. Never at motorists and never at pedestrians, although their count of head (or brain) injuries absolutely eclipses that of bicyclists. You are adapt at ignoring the point of the argument, aren't you. The discussion is about bicycle helmets, not pedestrian helmets, auto helmets, helmets for sleeping in, etc. Thus I was speaking of bicycle helmets and posing a different solution, which I suggest is more fair than, or at least offers more individual choice than, an all encompassing "helmet law". -- cheers, John B. |
#86
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
On 1/20/2020 2:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:42:50 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/20/2020 12:18 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 6:55:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: There's no giant conspiracy [to pass a MHL in Oregon] because you already have a helmet law in Oregon. You're just not part of the group subject to it. But there's constant social pressure to maintain the meme that "Of _course_ you must wear a helmet!" And if you ride into Washington State, you may find yourself in violation of a MHL. Yes, its true, I'm over the age of 16. So every parent is now expected to tell their kids "Riding a bike is really dangerous. You are NOT allowed to ever ride without wearing a helmet!" Luckily, I sired a non-stupid child. My son understood that there were rules to follow and did not get hysterical about wearing a helmet or the risks of cycling. There were times when he did not wear a helmet -- like our usual store run when I don't wear a helmet either. He also went through a phase when he didn't wear a helmet sometimes because of high school hair issues. Ah, the good old days: https://attheu.utah.edu/home-page/be...alt-lake-city/ At Specialized, I think he can get a helmet for like $1. He's seen his friends injured and has had spills of his own racing and riding, so he generally wears a helmet when he rides. If my local experience is any indication, that means a bunch of parents will say "Look, why don't you do something else instead?" And a bunch of kids will say "Screw it, if I have to wear that dorky hat, I'm not riding." And this is portrayed as benign? Hasn't cut down or ridership in Portland. https://www.portlandoregon.gov/trans...article/407660 To you, it is an end-of-world issue. To the cycling population in PDX -- its meaningless. Kids are used to wearing helmets, and people over 16 do what they want. Sorry, but "it hasn't cut down on ridership in Portland" is pure speculation. I recognize that Portland has much more bicycling than almost all U.S. cities. But that in itself is not proof that helmet laws or promotions don't deter riding. Logically, we know there are at least some kids who will choose not to ride if forced to wear a helmet. Both our kids had that opinion at one time or another, and I knew other kids with the same attitude. For the policy to have no net effect, there would have to be other kids who say "I never liked riding a bike, but now that I'm forced to wear a helmet, I"m going to begin riding." I don't know any person who ever said that. Honestly, I'm pretty sure you're braver than I am. I can tell that by your tales of crashes. Yes, like falling into a submerged pot hole and going OTB. I should have had Garmin sonar on my bike -- or going down on a patch of invisible black ice in front of my office. I've crashed riding at walking speed over a board-slat MUP bridge that was slimy (which now has indoor-outdoor carpet on it). This was ordinary riding/commuting and not crazy risk taking. Jay, do you think I've never ridden below freezing? Do you think I never rode on bridges or causeways with slippery wood surfaces? Do you think we don't have potholes? Fun fact: About three years ago the mayor of our village was lobbying for a new village levy, to be devoted entirely to road paving, because so many village streets were in terrible shape. Guess which street he chose to pose on, for the newspaper photo? He chose my street, which he apparently considered the most dramatic photo of potholes and patches. And it worked! The levy passed. Now guess which was the first street to get paved. OK, that's not fair, so I'll tell you. It was the street the mayor lives on. My street was not the second. Nor the third, fourth, fifth or sixth. I don't know where the count is now, but our street still looks exactly the same. And until about three weeks ago, it included a pothole about one foot by 18 inches, and maybe five inches deep. I had to avoid it every time I turned into our street, either by car or by bike, whether wet or dry. In any case, I deal with these things, and somehow I don't fall. Perhaps I'm more afraid of falling than you are. It hasn't caused me any emotional distress, unlike some. Apparently it doesn't cause you intellectual distress either. Nope. My helmets have paid off. It's the intellectually right move for me. Maybe not for you. Apparently it's not the right move for me, since I've never needed one in over 45 years of avid adult riding. My intellectual distress is with the propaganda that always accompanies helmet promotion. It's always either implied or stated that you NEED one of these things, because riding a bike is a big injury risk. I remain astonished that so many people, including so many avid cyclists, are so taken in by the propaganda, and so ignorant of the relevant data. But there are plenty of cyclists who could get prosecuted for perfectly reasonable behavior. Prosecuted? You men a ticket (that doesn't go against your license and can't be used for rating your insurnce)? Are you implying that's no trouble at all, and people shouldn't fuss about it? No more than they should fuss about the ten-bazillion other things for which you can get a ticket from a municipality. We were talking about the local Washington MHLs -- which are ordinances and not state laws. Whatever. It does bother me that an activity that is beneficial to the individual and beneficial to society is ladened with senseless laws, ordinances, or whatever you call the regulations. If there were ordinances saying you can't have your porch light on during daylight, or your car must be red, or you're not allowed to put a sign in your yard, I'd think those were stupid too. But bicycling is rather more important to me; hence I give more attention to stupid bicycle regulations. (We can talk about AFRAP laws again if you like.) We don't have those ordinances here in PDX, but we do have the state MHL for kids under 16, which doesn't seem to be keeping kids off bikes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4FO_9rKLO4 How are you doing there in helmet free Ohio? You've got great promotion of bicycling. I think it's partly because of a court case that mandated spending a certain percentage of transportation funds on non-motorized transportation, no? ;-) OTOH, there are other places that have bike mode shares that dwarf Portland's. And they don't promote helmets at all, let alone mandate them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVhYcJH_m5o See what Portland could be if not for helmets? OK, more seriously: There are many things that affect ridership. Fashion, local culture, city density, traffic levels, trip distances, climate, terrain, economy, privileges or penalties for motorists, etc. But there's no way that helmet promotion or mandates are a positive influence. This is one of my nearby climbs with a typical Portland driver. You would wear a helmet, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fzwm4m3ZFI Note at about 1:00 into the video, the driver is wearing a helmet. By some of the bike helmet promotion logic, every motorist should strap on a full face helmet before pulling out of the driveway. "Racers wear a helmet, so you should too!" Uh, no -- most drivers are not drifting up Rock Point which, in some places, just falls off a cliff. But that _has_ been said about bicyclists! I've rebutted it in this discussion group with references to NASCAR. BTW, that descent on a bike is very helmet worthy, particularly on wet pavement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 And I'm sure I would descend much more slowly and cautiously than you. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#87
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
|
#89
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
On 1/20/2020 3:42 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/20/2020 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 1/20/2020 12:06 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, 20 January 2020 09:36:47 UTC-5, DuaneÂ* wrote: I have no confidence that a bike helmet with prevent concussions.Â* Hell football helmets don't and they're a lot stronger than bike helmets. Both may mitigate the damage but I wouldn't depend on it. Okay I agree with you about helmets and concussions. When I saw the deep dent on the temple area of my helmet I sure was glad that I had the helmet on that ride. A fellow not riding with us, who was behind us, saw me fall and bounce and was ready to key in 911. He couldn't believe that I just got up, checked my bicycle, rinsed off my scrapes on the arms and shoulder and was ready to continue my ride. At the very least I didn't have scrapes on my head where scrapes usually bleed quite freely. I'm just glad that the helmet was there to take the impact instead of my temple taking that impact. Let me describe an incident I saw and posted here over ten years ago. We had just had dinner with several friends at a nice restaurant in a big city. We were walking back to our cars. Ahead, a tour bus was parked at the opposite curb. A car was in the process of passing the parked tour bus. Just as the car got to the front end of the bus, a young guy came zooming across the street directly in front of the car. There was no way the driver could avoid him. From our position behind the car, we heard a huge BANG! and saw the young guy's body fly up into the air, upside down. His head was higher than the roof of the car. Later we heard that he landed on his head on the street. I immediately turned around and sprinted back to the restaurant to call 911 and report a probable fatality; then I ran up to the site of the crash, where the driver was upset and sobbing. The front of her car was badly mangled and her windshield was broken. But there was no dead body. Instead, the college kid she hit was sitting on a low wall at the sidewalk, his head being held immobile by an off-duty emergency medical technician who happened to see the crash. Very soon, an ambulance crew arrived, immobilized the guy on a stretcher and took him to ER. A cop took statements from us witnesses. The young guy? He had a slight cut above his right ear, with almost no bleeding. It seemed to be from the windshield wiper. He was the one who said he landed on his head after the crash.Â* But he was fine. I phoned the next day in case he had died or something, and my testimony might be needed. They said he attended classes as usual and had only a minor headache. The weird part? He was NOT wearing a helmet. Even weirder, nobody - not the EMT, not the ambulance guys, not the cop, none of the witnesses - said he should have been wearing one. That's because he was a pedestrian, not a bicyclist. He had jogged out from the front of that bus. And even though pedestrians have far more serious TBI (in total or per mile traveled) nobody said he needed a helmet. But if he had worn one? Why, it would be smashed. It would have been absolute proof that it "saved his life." It might have made its way into a newspaper article, or be on display in a pedestrian protective gear shop - like a couple of bike helmets I've seen. (Have people noticed there are not mandatory pedestrian helmet laws even for kids?) I don't doubt you. Our local news also periodically covers minor slips and falls on ice with much less impact but yet fatal. We all have our favorite anecdotes which, even when each true and complete, are not dispositive to any larger trend or principle. Which is precisely why I repeatedly call for paying attention to national data, rather than to scary anecdotes. If one mocks 'helmet saved my life', then 'no helmet, didn't die' is equally unconvincing. They are not equivalent! The former case is speculation, unless the crash is precisely duplicated without a helmet and results in the person's death - a procedure that's obviously impossible. But if a person did crash and did not die, that case is a proven fact. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#90
|
|||
|
|||
Sad helmet incident
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Another RLJ incident | Simon Mason | UK | 6 | September 30th 11 07:31 AM |
An Incident | Jorg Lueke | General | 28 | June 17th 08 04:51 PM |
First incident in ages | Chris Eilbeck | UK | 12 | September 22nd 06 07:52 PM |
Strange incident | Tom Crispin | UK | 7 | March 3rd 06 06:54 PM |
Another incident | MikeyOz | Australia | 18 | January 17th 06 09:48 AM |