Settled Science?

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:21:16 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:06:52 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:44:52 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/28/2018 8:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Using logic to argue with Trump supporters is a zero-sum game. Accept
that you are Pol Pot and move on.

I can't be Pol Pot. I went to college and wear glasses. I'd have to kill myself.

-- Jay Beattie

Pol Pot went to college. He won a prestigious scholarship to study engineering in France.

AJ
Just the fax, mam

I lived through the time of the communist expansion and its collapse. It is this second occurring in Venezuela which used to be the second richest country in the Americas. But communists are really not all that bright - if they look at history and they see socialism's absolute failure they can still blame it on the working capitalism in the rest of the world.

On 10/28/2018 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:58:16 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
snip
This is why the Democrat Party has destroyed itself. You are mentally deranged and should be in an institution to protect the entire world from your kind. Do you have icons of Pol Pot on your walls?


I have no idea bout that or how much of her story is true.
Then again:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b0/7c/1c/b...400b9065b3.jpg

These kinds of memes are just grapeshot at the "other side" (whatever side that may be) and end any rational discussion or understanding of the role of social welfare systems in either creating or alleviating poverty. What would be productive is figuring out what works, but that is no longer part of national dialog. It's all about pointing fingers.

-- Jay Beattie.

There's a medical name for it now, TDS, Trump Derangement Syndrome.

On 10/28/2018 2:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 1:30:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/28/2018 2:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:58:16 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
snip
This is why the Democrat Party has destroyed itself. You are mentally deranged and should be in an institution to protect the entire world from your kind. Do you have icons of Pol Pot on your walls?


I have no idea bout that or how much of her story is true.
Then again:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b0/7c/1c/b...400b9065b3.jpg

These kinds of memes are just grapeshot at the "other side" (whatever side that may be) and end any rational discussion or understanding of the role of social welfare systems in either creating or alleviating poverty. What would be productive is figuring out what works, but that is no longer part of national dialog. It's all about pointing fingers.

-- Jay Beattie.


That's a direct quote from Elbert Guillory (who writes
compellingly).

Yes, and he's a bomb thrower. Being a conservative black bomb thrower gets you center stage, much like my former English professor, Shelby Steele -- who, by the way, was an underwhelming English professor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_Steele Throwing bombs on both sides is a cottage industry -- and a lucrative one.

I think that as a society, we agree that some social safety net is appropriate. Figuring out which programs work should be our first priority. There are programs that produce ROI (getting people back to work, etc.), and some programs are simply charity because, as a society, we're unwilling to watch people die in the streets. There is undoubtedly a lot of chaff in between. I'm fine with doing the science to determine what does or doesn't work. I'm absolutely sick and tired of all the bomb throwing -- and the enraged loose screws going on shooting sprees.

I am very impressed with Marc Benioff of Salesforce for admitting some
simple truths, and then putting his money where his mouth is, despite
enraging some of his corporate executive peers.

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/marc-benioff-salesforce-founder-jack-dorsey-twitter-founder-san-francisco-homelessness-proposition-c.html

The issue now facing the U.S. is that with the corporate tax cut, large
corporations have reaped billions of dollars in additional profits while
that same money is no longer in the federal treasury to pay for
necessary programs, including programs that the right-wing hates,
including food stamps.

Measure C in San Francisco would not be much of a burden given the tax
savings these same companies have enjoyed. If a company has no profits,
and there are a lot of these in San Francisco (Uber, etc,) then they
would not be burdened.

In San Francisco, the homelessness issue has been greatly exacerbated by
all the tech companies moving in and causing gentrification of
neighborhoods and much higher rents. Many of the homeless people
actually do have jobs in San Francisco, but a minimum wage job is not
sufficient for housing in San Francisco, and moving far out of the city
is not possible due to the expense and time of commuting from an area
with lower cost housing. Vans and old RVs have become the new Below
Market Rate housing
https://abc7news.com/realestate/san-francisco-portola-residents-fed-up-with-rvs-on-street/4465713/.

Mountain View has a measure on the ballot to change their business tax
model and to levy a per employee tax. This would affect Google, but the
total amount is so minimal that it would be just a rounding error on
their books and Google is not opposing the ballot measure.

Might a company decide to leave if their business taxes increase, or if
their is tax on corporate profits? They might, but it's unlikely if the
tax is not burdensome. If they leave for less costly locations, then
that's their decision.

Maximizing the number of jobs is not the only metric by which a city
should be judged. We've created a huge mess in the Bay Area, with too
many jobs but not nearly enough roads, transit, or housing, especially
housing for service workers. The City of San Francisco has added to the
housing mess with confiscatory rent control which removes large amounts
of older, less costly housing, from the market and converts it to more
expensive Tenants in Common ownership housing (rent control is a scam as
it ends up hurting the poor the most).

In Cupertino we have looked at a similar change to the business tax
structure from per square foot of space to per employee. As tech
companies pack more and more people in their buildings (average square
feet per worker has plunged as offices, and later cubicles, have been
eliminated), the per square foot model is less valid and many cities
have moved to a per employee model. We did not put it on the ballot for
2018, it was too rushed, preferring to see if we can work with our
largest employer first, but it may come back, and it would have to go to
voters.

On 10/29/2018 9:51 AM, wrote:

Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did.

What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.


Tom, you sound totally unhinged.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 8:09:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2018 9:51 AM, wrote:

Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did..

What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism.. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.


Tom, you sound totally unhinged.

--
- Frank Krygowski

And after you watching Jay post his communist propaganda you have agreed with him on every front. He is for helping everyone else as long as he using the money of someone else.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 06:56:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:21:16 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:06:52 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:44:52 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/28/2018 8:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Using logic to argue with Trump supporters is a zero-sum game. Accept
that you are Pol Pot and move on.

I can't be Pol Pot. I went to college and wear glasses. I'd have to kill myself.

-- Jay Beattie

Pol Pot went to college. He won a prestigious scholarship to study engineering in France.

AJ
Just the fax, mam

I lived through the time of the communist expansion and its collapse. It is this second occurring in Venezuela which used to be the second richest country in the Americas. But communists are really not all that bright - if they look at history and they see socialism's absolute failure they can still blame it on the working capitalism in the rest of the world.

Ah but Venezuela is a democratic country, not a communist country, if
anything it might be called a fascist country. And the economic crash
is largely a factor of depending almost solely on a single source of
income - oil - while at the same time increasing welfare program and
house building for the poor. .

This of course made the government popular and ensured that voters
would support the re-election of government officials - which it did.

But unfortunately with a single source of income when oil prices sank
so did the nation's income and instead of restricting the freebies the
government simply printed more and more money. As there was plenty of
currency in the system while at the same time less and less goods for
sale the price of goods skyrocketed, exactly the same as Germany after
WW I when the cost of a loaf of bread became 200,000,000,000 marks, as
it did in 1923.

What is it? Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"?
--
Cheers

John B.

On 10/29/2018 6:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 06:56:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:21:16 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:06:52 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:44:52 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/28/2018 8:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Using logic to argue with Trump supporters is a zero-sum game. Accept
that you are Pol Pot and move on.

I can't be Pol Pot. I went to college and wear glasses. I'd have to kill myself.

-- Jay Beattie

Pol Pot went to college. He won a prestigious scholarship to study engineering in France.

AJ
Just the fax, mam

I lived through the time of the communist expansion and its collapse. It is this second occurring in Venezuela which used to be the second richest country in the Americas. But communists are really not all that bright - if they look at history and they see socialism's absolute failure they can still blame it on the working capitalism in the rest of the world.

Ah but Venezuela is a democratic country, not a communist country, if
anything it might be called a fascist country. And the economic crash
is largely a factor of depending almost solely on a single source of
income - oil - while at the same time increasing welfare program and
house building for the poor. .

This of course made the government popular and ensured that voters
would support the re-election of government officials - which it did.

But unfortunately with a single source of income when oil prices sank
so did the nation's income and instead of restricting the freebies the
government simply printed more and more money. As there was plenty of
currency in the system while at the same time less and less goods for
sale the price of goods skyrocketed, exactly the same as Germany after
WW I when the cost of a loaf of bread became 200,000,000,000 marks, as
it did in 1923.

What is it? Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"?
--
Cheers

John B.



One might define words randomly but 'democracy' would be a
stretch:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nat...141655519.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/31/vene...-annulled.html

With a parallel brutal Cuban security system in place,
nobody much is going to change Venzuela either.

and 'oil prices' may fall short of a full explanation:
https://i1.wp.com/sc.cnbcfm.com/appl...production.png

more recently even worse:
https://ei.marke****ch.com/Multimedi...5-001cc448aede

As Margaret Thatcher taught, they seem to have 'run out of
other people's money'. Next chapter goes like this:

https://www.latinfinance.com/magazin...zuelan-default

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/29/2018 7:02 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 8:09:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2018 9:51 AM, wrote:

Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did.

What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.


Tom, you sound totally unhinged.

--
- Frank Krygowski

And after you watching Jay post his communist propaganda you have agreed with him on every front. He is for helping everyone else as long as he using the money of someone else.

Sounded to me like he's done a pretty fair amount of helping on his own,
using his own time and money.

But that wasn't what I was addressing. I was just saying you sound
totally unhinged.

I'm just hoping you don't appear in the headlines, with links to your
Usenet posts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 1:43:27 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2018 7:02 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 8:09:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2018 9:51 AM, wrote:

Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did.

What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.


Tom, you sound totally unhinged.

--
- Frank Krygowski

And after you watching Jay post his communist propaganda you have agreed with him on every front. He is for helping everyone else as long as he using the money of someone else.

Sounded to me like he's done a pretty fair amount of helping on his own,
using his own time and money.

But that wasn't what I was addressing. I was just saying you sound
totally unhinged.

I'm just hoping you don't appear in the headlines, with links to your
Usenet posts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Boy, this is an amusing thread. I'm waiting for someone to shoot someone just because he has another opinion.

Lou, here someone is allowed to be a socialist or even a communist or a fascist.

On 10/30/2018 11:28 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 1:43:27 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2018 7:02 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 8:09:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2018 9:51 AM, wrote:

Sorry, you're not going to get away with that. You are not "liberal". You are a socialist proud and loud. You are NOT for more freedom as liberalism was originally but for not less but none at all. No one in any walk of life that knows even 1000 times more about anything than you has the slightest right not to just a right to speak it but in even daring to hold and opinion contrary to yours. You are looking for all the good little Germans that would drape the NAZI flag over their balconies so that the Brown Shirts would know that they wouldn't oppose the socialist Hitler in anything he did.

What used to be a Democrat Party is now the Brown Shirts. Those who believe that anything no matter how corrupt is fine when opposing conservatism. You have shown a level of evil even in these conversations that would have you beaten almost to death in any bar in California in the 1950's. And you actually glory in it thinking that YOU are going to be one of the ones that Pol Pot takes over onto his side. Sorry he murdered everyone without discrimination. He even had his own murderers murdered. That is the socialist way - there can be only one king and he must prove it. Whether it be Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or any other of the communist states.


Tom, you sound totally unhinged.

--
- Frank Krygowski

And after you watching Jay post his communist propaganda you have agreed with him on every front. He is for helping everyone else as long as he using the money of someone else.

Sounded to me like he's done a pretty fair amount of helping on his own,
using his own time and money.

But that wasn't what I was addressing. I was just saying you sound
totally unhinged.

I'm just hoping you don't appear in the headlines, with links to your
Usenet posts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Boy, this is an amusing thread. I'm waiting for someone to shoot someone just because he has another opinion.

Lou, here someone is allowed to be a socialist or even a communist or a fascist.

Well, this is the "land of the free." To some, that translates as "No
socialism allowed."

--
- Frank Krygowski