MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-03-30 02:04, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.


Now try that again when the rims are wet. With locking up I mean
instantly, tens of milliseconds.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-03-30 05:42, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:16:42 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 02:29:26 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:04:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's
scary. Then they require bleeding which, depending on
the kind, is a messy business. On mine particularly so
because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy
duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have
cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is
cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once
set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish)
miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game
changers in terms of performance and maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap
between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as
powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and cheaper
Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to my
Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the
real game changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger
and brake response is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to
worry when riding a steep trail with some cargo in the back.

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With
one finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two
fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either. --
Cheers,

John B.

You keep saying that, but are you also denying that in case of a
descent in really wet conditions your rim brakes (V or calipers)
brake signifant less than in dry conditions?

Lou

I don't know, or more factually, I never noticed. And, yes, as I
live in a tropical country I do get caught in the rain from time to
time. To be frank, I never gave the brakes a thought - they just
worked.

Then along came this thread and I discovered that the rim brakes
that I had always considered satisfactory turned out to be ****!
Damn, about 20 years of being satisfied with what I had and now
I've got to convert to disc brakes to be able to stop the bike. --
Cheers,

John B.

No one but Joerg is saying that you die if you use rim brakes. We all
use or used rim brakes and we survived. This doesn't mean that
(hydraulic) disc brake are better in wet conditions.


I use rim brakes 50% of the time because my road bike has Shimano 600
gear. However, in really foul weather and treahcerous routes one must
keep the brakes slight engaged to be able to stop fast. Else 1-2sec free
fall and potentialy a crash. Almost had that a week ago when a car
driver blew a stop sign during a hail storm. He probably didn't even see it.

Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
things that increase safety, no matter where.

BTW, during that hail storm we stopped in a tunnel for a while. There
was also a guy with a German Sheperd which, of course, I had to meet.
Turns out he is from the Netherlands and when he saw my road bike with
the Dutch Gazelle Trim Trophy frame he was pleasantly surprised to see
one this far away.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:09:37 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:41:51 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 14:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine
particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement
riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is
harder than tool steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you
could build a front wheel for your MTB using a
motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite
pleased with the brake performance of my MTB. The
bleeding is messy but only needs to be done about once
a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake
starts feeling soft. Braking is still fine and most other
riders just leave it like that but I like the pressure
point nice and hard. Also, the slightest amount of air in
the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on a
long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and
they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing
something right.

Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no mountain
lions. Of course they work for you.


There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to ride
through rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a state
where you can't even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well,
except they can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage cabinet.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt you
can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In total I
spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had a day of
rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...


Where do you take your CX bike? Eastern Belgium? Or to the Alps?

Mud is really horrid on rim brakes. 1-2sec "free fall" and then a
grinding noise while the rim gets eaten.


Story time: I was born and raised in California and raced NorCal and
used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver, Washington. He would
step out from his apartment, look up and say "another nice day." I
didn't know what he was taking about until I moved to Portland. He
would go to Portland every year at Fourth of July for the races at
Alpenrose.
https://www.bicycleattorney.com/img/...015-oregon.jpg
He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In July? We
were cooking in July.

Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic rain storms,
and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now and then and some
rain. It is, however, a dry climate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4


Nah, this is the real Cameron Park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu7DULHr738
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKoIsNda8s


... Lots of oak, madrone, bay
and brown grass during summer. I miss the smell, and up the road a
ways, there is some great climbing . . . on the road. In fact, it is
some of the best climbing and scenery in the US, although
considerably east of Joerg's house.


It's all around us. Road and offroad, and I prefer offroad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH--6YiJcwU

Though my ultimate retirement destination would be St.George in Utah.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:03:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:09:37 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:41:51 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 14:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine
particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement
riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is
harder than tool steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you
could build a front wheel for your MTB using a
motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite
pleased with the brake performance of my MTB. The
bleeding is messy but only needs to be done about once
a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake
starts feeling soft. Braking is still fine and most other
riders just leave it like that but I like the pressure
point nice and hard. Also, the slightest amount of air in
the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on a
long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and
they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing
something right.

Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no mountain
lions. Of course they work for you.


There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to ride
through rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a state
where you can't even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well,
except they can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage cabinet.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt you
can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In total I
spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had a day of
rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...


Where do you take your CX bike? Eastern Belgium? Or to the Alps?

Mud is really horrid on rim brakes. 1-2sec "free fall" and then a
grinding noise while the rim gets eaten.


Story time: I was born and raised in California and raced NorCal and
used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver, Washington. He would
step out from his apartment, look up and say "another nice day." I
didn't know what he was taking about until I moved to Portland. He
would go to Portland every year at Fourth of July for the races at
Alpenrose.
https://www.bicycleattorney.com/img/...015-oregon.jpg
He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In July? We
were cooking in July.

Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic rain storms,
and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now and then and some
rain. It is, however, a dry climate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4


Nah, this is the real Cameron Park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu7DULHr738
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKoIsNda8s

I've flown in there with my brother a few times -- it's a quick spin from STS and Santa Rosa. I could not imagine living near an airstrip, however.

You better visit St. George before moving. It's the moon compared to the Sierra foothills. If I were you, I'd go to Europe -- one of those, warm picturesque places around the Mediterranean. No strip malls.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/30/2018 5:29 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:04:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.
--
Cheers,

John B.

You keep saying that, but are you also denying that in case of a descent in really wet conditions your rim brakes (V or calipers) brake signifant less than in dry conditions?

I will admit that for a given amount of lever force, my rim brakes
produce less braking force in wet weather. So if necessary, I increase
the lever force. That is, I squeeze harder.

Is it a safety problem? Joerg talks about instances where he would have
died but for the slightly faster response of a disc brake compared to a
wet rim brake.

Well, I've never come close to a crash from that cause. But then,
despite my stubborn use of archaic bike technology, I've had only two
on-road crashes since 1972, neither related to brakes. And I haven't died.

I did have one serious brake failure in 1973 or 1974. My wife and I were
riding in a thunderstorm downpour on our first (very lousy) ten speed
bikes. Those had chrome steel rims with hundreds of dimples that acted
as water reservoirs, plus thin, scrappy-looking Ballila center pull
brakes. On a short steep downhill before a T intersection, we couldn't
make the turn because our wet brakes wouldn't slow us in time; so we
rolled past the stem of the T. But once we switched to bikes with decent
calipers and alloy rims, we've never had a similar problem.

Riding in rain, are disc brakes better? Probably so. Are rim brakes bad?
Not in my experience. It doesn't take a genius to compensate for the
difference in brake performance when wet.

And I see no reason to chase after absolutely every purported
improvement to the bicycle. There are always benefits and detriments,
and good enough is always good enough, by definition.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:

Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
things that increase safety, no matter where.

I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
high flippy flags on your bikes? Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?
Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
stairs in your home and install elevators?

Again: There are always detriments as well as benefits. Yes, the
marketers and those proselytizing for their own choices go to great
length to overstate dangers and overstate benefits. Others are less
easily duped.

I'll put the latest "visibility" study in a separate thread.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2018 4:56 AM, John B. wrote:

I note that some of those who have so many problems with rim brakes
seem to have so many problems with practically everything on the
bicycle and, I might add that those who don't seem to have a lot of
brake problems don't seem that have a lot of problems with the rest of
the bike either :-)

Very true.

I'll note that further generalization is possible. Some people just have
lots more trouble than others. But I suppose it's rude to speculate why.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:03:12 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 07:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:09:37 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:41:51 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 14:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine
particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement
riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is
harder than tool steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you
could build a front wheel for your MTB using a
motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite
pleased with the brake performance of my MTB. The
bleeding is messy but only needs to be done about once
a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake
starts feeling soft. Braking is still fine and most other
riders just leave it like that but I like the pressure
point nice and hard. Also, the slightest amount of air in
the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on a
long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and
they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing
something right.

Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no mountain
lions. Of course they work for you.


There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to ride
through rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a state
where you can't even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well,
except they can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage cabinet.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt you
can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In total I
spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had a day of
rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...


Where do you take your CX bike? Eastern Belgium? Or to the Alps?


Just in my backyard, most of the time just across the German border. Once in a while I make a clip of our ride. You can download (it is save) a clip of a typical sunday morning winter ride here

https://we.tl/6awaXeHLBp

Lou

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:42:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:16:42 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 02:29:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:04:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.
--
Cheers,

John B.

You keep saying that, but are you also denying that in case of a descent in really wet conditions your rim brakes (V or calipers) brake signifant less than in dry conditions?

Lou

I don't know, or more factually, I never noticed. And, yes, as I live
in a tropical country I do get caught in the rain from time to time.
To be frank, I never gave the brakes a thought - they just worked.

Then along came this thread and I discovered that the rim brakes that
I had always considered satisfactory turned out to be ****! Damn,
about 20 years of being satisfied with what I had and now I've got to
convert to disc brakes to be able to stop the bike.
--
Cheers,

John B.

No one but Joerg is saying that you die if you use rim brakes.
We all use or used rim brakes and we survived. This doesn't mean that
(hydraulic) disc brake are better in wet conditions.

Lou

But "Better"means what? That you can stop faster with a disc? But my
rim brakes will skid either or both wheels in the wet. Given that
bicycle braking is limited by(1) tire adhesion to the blacktop and/or
(2) keeping the rear wheel on the ground how can a brake be better
then one that can stop the wheel from turning?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:19:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-30 02:04, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.


Now try that again when the rims are wet. With locking up I mean
instantly, tens of milliseconds.

A recent study demonstrated that an auditory stimulus takes 8 - 10 ms
to reach the brain, but on the other hand, a visual stimulus takes
20-40 ms. After the brain recognizes the event it must trigger the
muscles to react. Most texts seem to suggest that a good reaction time
is anywhere between 0.25 seconds and 0.35 seconds. Or 250 - 350
milliseconds. Your 10 millisecond reaction is much quicker then has
been tested in humans.... One can only assume that you are from
Krypton.

--
Cheers,

John B.