How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

!Jones' Sock Puppet wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:00:42 -0800 (PST), in alt.war.vietnam
" wrote:

On Jan 15, 7:06 am, !Jones' Sock Puppet wrote:
In '70, one could buy a decent bicycle for $20 - $30 at a hardware
store. I paid $48.33 in '68 for my '66 Schwinn equipped with a Bendix
kickback and that was considered extravagant. In '70, I was in
Vietnam, so I didn't have a bicycle; however, in '72, I was driving a
cab and considered 40 bucks to be a decent night's book... I probably
averaged $30 to $35.

I was in Georgetown, DC in October doing a little urban hiking...
granted, that's a pricey neighborhood. We walked by a bike shop and
their window display bike had a $22K price tag!!! Sheeze! That's
more than I paid for my first *house*! It's even a fairly large part
of it when adjusted for inflation.

When you put multiple thousands of dollars into a bicycle, what you
have is a fetish, not transportation.

Jones
You can buy a $70 bike at walmart, target, kmart. they'll ride fine
and can be used to commute.

Oh, in today's market, methinks I'd budget about $500 or so for a
decent commuter. Then about half again for the racks, fenders, and
panniers... those accesories ain't cheap!

True, by the time they are marked up from the manufacturer, distributor,
and retailer, they aren't cheap. In reality, they are all extremely
inexpensive when included as part of the bicycle. A rack costs the
manufacturer under $2. As do fenders.

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 06:10:08 -0800, in alt.war.vietnam SMS
wrote:

True, by the time they are marked up from the manufacturer, distributor,
and retailer, they aren't cheap. In reality, they are all extremely
inexpensive when included as part of the bicycle. A rack costs the
manufacturer under $2. As do fenders.

Well, that's true of almost any consumer product. The actual
fabrication cost averages around 5% of the retail cost. The high-end
stuff has a much greater profit margin; however, that's driven by fad
and carrys the risk pf being stuck with lots of product that's no
longer in fashion.

As I recall, there are several LBS owners herein... ask them about the
huge profits they make.

Jones

!Jones' Sock Puppet wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 06:10:08 -0800, in alt.war.vietnam SMS
wrote:

True, by the time they are marked up from the manufacturer, distributor,
and retailer, they aren't cheap. In reality, they are all extremely
inexpensive when included as part of the bicycle. A rack costs the
manufacturer under $2. As do fenders.

Well, that's true of almost any consumer product. The actual
fabrication cost averages around 5% of the retail cost.

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.

If bikes in the US market begin to come well equipped with
accessories, then the markup will have to increase as well. That
might prove to be more economical for those riders who were going to
buy all that stuff anyway, but it would surely cost more for the folks
who would have bought only a small subset of the accessories, or none
at all. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea, but it's
something to consider.

On the other hand, there is the possibility that more comprehensively
spec'ed bikes would sell to more people, and economy of scale would
make it a net win for everyone. I'm not at all sure what it would
take in terms of accessories to get non-cyclists to buy in, though.
Maybe something that pedals for you. :^)

Chalo

On Jan 24, 6:24*pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. *Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. *When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. *The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.

That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?

As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers). When it comes to my LBS I want it to be
a transaction that works for everyone, which includes them making some
$. Aside from the joking suggestion they throw in a water bottle and
cage I paid what they ended up asking for my Sunday bike, and they
were more than happy to give it to me at that price to get it off the
floor (and I presume give me another bike to go to them for parts for,
and keep a happy customer happy). It also came with a free tune-up
that I never used which would cost them additional time, which is
money.

In article
,
" wrote:

On Jan 24, 6:24*pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. *Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. *When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. *The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.

That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?

As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers).

I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase. I decided what car and features I wanted and what a fair
price was. The saleswoman wrote up a contract, then said she was
going to the sales manager to have it reviewed. I said that if
the sales manager did not pass on it, I would be lowering my offer.
She laughed.

--
Michael Press

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:45:36 -0800, SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

This is all fine if you like what is already on the RS, but if you do not,
then it is just wasted money.

When I look for accessories, then I have very specific requirements about
their construction as well.

So different folks, different accessories.

terryc wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:45:36 -0800, SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

This is all fine if you like what is already on the RS, but if you do not,
then it is just wasted money.

When I look for accessories, then I have very specific requirements about
their construction as well.

So different folks, different accessories.

True, but it would be nice to have an "out of the box" fully functional
transportation bike, then you could always customize it later if you wished.

which reminds me... new year's resolution, I WILL gear out my bike so
that I can actually use it to go shopping. Gotta get on that. Right
after I fix the oil leaks and battery tray in the truck, and clean up
the house. Yes, my resolutions are boring.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jan 24, 8:25*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

True, but it would be nice to have an "out of the box" fully functional
transportation bike, then you could always customize it later if you wished.

In his magazine Bicycle Quarterly, Jan Heine sings the praises of
"constructeur" French touring and randonneur bikes of the 1930s -
1960s. As he says, if bike and accessories are well designed to work
as a unit when the bike is built, quality and reliability should be
higher, and weight a bit lower.

But I agree that riders may want different choices. Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 24, 5:45*pm, SMS wrote:
!Jones' Sock Puppet wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 06:10:08 -0800, in alt.war.vietnam SMS
wrote:

True, by the time they are marked up from the manufacturer, distributor,
and retailer, they aren't cheap. In reality, they are all extremely
inexpensive when included as part of the bicycle. A rack costs the
manufacturer under $2. As do fenders.

Well, that's true of almost any consumer product. *The actual
fabrication cost averages around 5% of the retail cost.

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

When I bought my "Sunday bike" I brought it back from the test ride
(which lasted quite a while on a hot summer day). When he asked what
I thought my first comment was that it lacked hydration, joking with
the mechanic (who I already knew) as a way to excuse my walking away
from him to get a drink from my water bottle. Once rehydrated and
cooled down a touch we got to talking turkey, with me telling him up
front that I liked it (I had already told him I had cash in pocket
(may as well let them know they won't be paying cc fees before
negotiating)). He told me he thought he could get me an even better
price than the already-discounted price I was given before the test
ride, and after chatting with the owner came back with a substantially
lower cash-today-ride-away price. It was all quite pleasant, without
any haggling or uncomfortable trying to hassle them out of their
profit. I probably could have gotten it for less than I did had I
really tried to haggle them, but that shop is always good to me and I
wanted all parties to be happy. At the end of the transaction, after
the bike was paid for they solved the "hydration problem" for me for
free, threw in a bottle and cage that probably only cost them a couple
bucks but would have cost me $20 off the shelf. Granted the bike was
a leftover they really wanted to move, and the shop knew me, but the
whole thing left it clear to me there is some wiggle room in the
sticker price on new bikes. I was told at the start I could have
gotten a percentage off anything already on the floor (I'm sure I
would have paid MSRP if I had them order me something, we never got
into that because I really wanted to ride a bike before buying it and
they preferred to sell a bike they already had on the floor).

Along those same lines one could probably mention that the commuter
they were looking at was missing fenders and a rack as part of the
initial negotiation. The shop will be looking at their cost on the
stuff to throw it in, so you might get $70 in add-ons that cost them
$35 where you could have negotiated that 35 off the price and still
had to shell out the other $35 to get that stuff. Maybe you get
something thrown in, maybe you get a percentage off the accessories,
but I'd think there'd be some way to meet in the middle.

(I have no idea what fenders and a rack would actually cost, retail or
for the shop, or what type of negotiation is standard for a commuter -
I assume its relative to the cost of the bike. My above $35 & 70 are
arbitrary to make a point, not to be confused with what stuff actually
costs).

I do agree commuters should come with this stuff, but since they don't
why not try to meet in the middle somewhere?