Shimano USA - Price Too High?

It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this
interesting given Shimano USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order
retailers.

2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is
43,000 yen or about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for
34,000 yen, about $280.00)
2003 DA crank - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about
$300.00

Gives you something to think about. It also is a strong indication of
what the discount to the inporter is. I really don't mind a company
making a profit (that is after all what they are in business for) but
there seems to be something wrong with this picture.
When I get the Japan list price for the new DA crank/group I'll post
that also given the approximately 500.00 jump in price from the current
Should be an excellent year for Campy Record!

Stu

--
"Refrain from throwing your bicycle in public. It shows poor
upbringing." -
Jacquie Phelan

"Stuart J. Armour" wrote in message ...
It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this
interesting given Shimano USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order
retailers.

2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is
43,000 yen or about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for
34,000 yen, about $280.00)
2003 DA crank - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about
$300.00

Gives you something to think about. It also is a strong indication of
what the discount to the inporter is. I really don't mind a company
making a profit (that is after all what they are in business for) but
there seems to be something wrong with this picture.
When I get the Japan list price for the new DA crank/group I'll post
that also given the approximately 500.00 jump in price from the current
Should be an excellent year for Campy Record!

Agree, at the SF Grand Prix/T-Mobile Int'l, I was able to see and test
ride ,on a trainer, the new DA 10. Although I still fine the cranks to
be ugly, the shifting was flawless and very, very smooth. When I asked
the Shimano rep was the going rate was for the DA 10 group, he quoted
between "$1500-1600". I've heard DA 10 is on the market now for like
$1300-1400. That's in line with 2003 Record 10, which probably should
increase in 2004 due to a "redesign" of a few pieces, like the new
rear der.

Nevertheless, Shimano believes its new DA 10 group is comparable to
Record 10, at least in performance, and since they have the biggest
cycling marketing tool available - Lance Armstrong - I suspect that at
least in the short-term, DA 10 groups will be flying out the door at
that $1300-1500 range....

"Stuart J. Armour" wrote in message ...
It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this
interesting given Shimano USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order
retailers.

2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is
43,000 yen or about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for
34,000 yen, about $280.00)
2003 DA crank - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about
$300.00


Prices listed on a manufacturer's website would almost certainly be
higher than those through a direct-to-consumer site. That way, the
manufacturer protects itself from accusations of "price-fixing" by
allowing the seller to set the price and still allowing the price to
vary based on market factors.

Jeff

"Stuart J. Armour" wrote in message ...

It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this
interesting given Shimano USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order
retailers.

2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is
43,000 yen or about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for
34,000 yen, about $280.00)
2003 DA crank - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about
$300.00


[snip]

Stu

Dear Stu,

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm guessing that you're in Japan,
that the Shimano cranks are manufactured there, and that you're
comparing the prices for cranks shipped from a Japanese factory
to a Japanese bike shop and picked up by customers, to the prices
for the same cranks shipped from Japan to mail order warehouses
in the U.S. and then shipped to private homes.

Years ago, a Honda motorcycle dealer patiently explained to me
that yes, the clutch lever was expensive, but that it took half a
dozen people to get it into my grubby little paws between
Colorado and Japan, and they all liked to feed their families,
so maybe I shouldn't have broken it in the first place.

It's not as if shipping is free, running a mail order house is
a charity, or Shimano cranks are a high-volume, low-margin
business. It's a luxury trade, with luxury prices. Curse that
evil Sheldon Brown, that wicked Andrew Muzi, and all those other
dealers for not offering me parts at cost!

Another way to look at the vast profits squeezed out of the
helpless public by capitalist bloodsuckers is to compare their
their apparent profits to the sales tax and the UPS shipping
for the item. On a $400 crank delivered to my door, UPS is
likely to ask for $10-15 to cover shipping and insurance, while
my city, county, and state firmly (but mistakenly) believe that
I will pay $29.60 in taxes. Should the middle-men who do far
more settle for a lot less?

The bicycle-parts middle-men are unlikely to have the economies
of scale enjoyed by UPS and the government. Until you've run
a successful mail-order house or local bike shop for a few years,
beware of setting their prices to suit your convenience.

(No, I'm not a bicycle dealer. I do, occasionally, have to explain
to medical offices that I don't drive across town to plug their
printers back in for less than they tip the pizza delivery-man.)

But it certainly is interesting to see what people are paying
for bicycle parts elsewhere--thanks!

Carl Fogel

"Stuart J. Armour" wrote in message ...
.. Gives you something to think about. It also is a strong indication of
what the discount to the inporter is. I really don't mind a company
making a profit (that is after all what they are in business for) but
there seems to be something wrong with this picture.
When I get the Japan list price for the new DA crank/group I'll post
that also given the approximately 500.00 jump in price from the current
Should be an excellent year for Campy Record!

Would that include the $850 plastic cranks, rev. 2 in your comparison?
Can you get a set of 165mm carbon Record cranks in a triple over there
yet?

Dear Carl, (and everyone else)

Yes I'm in Japan, but the point I was making is that until now I could get Shimano parts way cheaper mail
order than I could here (unless on sale, then all bets are off) as usually a Japanese Bike shop sells only at
list price and no discount whatsoever. ( BTW that's not a new story with us who live here, typically we can
purchase Japanese made items from the states for anywhere from 10 to 30% less than what the product sells for
here due to all the middlemen involved in the Japanese market and I'm talking with 15 years+ of history living
here so I know what I'm talking about). That's why I found it very interesting that the new XTR (and
presumably the new DA group) was 15-20 percent more than the Japanese list price.

The current DA crank (7700 series) I think shows the actual cost to Shimano USA for shipping, customs,
handling, etc. with a fair markup to the wholesaler. Using the latest mail order catalog the cost is around
$200.00 (it's been that price ever since it's been out). That translates to a 45% reduction US retail (not
wholesale) from the Japanese list price. CC's fall catalog doesn't list a group price but the cost of the
components is about $1620.00 giving a jump in price for the group of around $500.00. Campy's new price list
isn't out yet to my knowledge but with the increase in carbon parts it will go up also but I don't think that
much. So why have all the costs (shipping, handling, etc.) increased with the release of the 7800 series 100%
or more (and only the new DA and XTR groups went up like this, 105 & Ultegra prices have remained essentially
the same)? For your theory to be true, all of the Shimano prices would have gone up a similar amount, not just
the new DA & XTR groups.

It seems to me that Shimano USA by choking down the mail order/web market to 6 "authorized" stores is
attempting to control the pricing. I believe it's legal doing it this way but the result is the same to all
who use the mail order to get what they want. Higher prices. Forget Harris Cyclery. Forget Branford Bike.
Forget Cambria, Price Point, etc. If you sell mail order/web you are not allowed to sell Shimano products by
mail unless "authorized". If you violate that, then the position of Shimano USA is we won't sell to you.
Period. This is not in the best interest of us, the consumer.

If anyone is a "blood sucking capitalist" it's not the retailers being dictated to or the retailers barred
from being able to purchase and sell Shimano on the web or mail order, it's the short sighted, myopic,
self-important owners of Shimano USA. Apple computer did something similar 20 years ago and see what that got
them (I think they have about 5% of the PC market now, instead of the 50% or more that they once enjoyed. They
too jacked up prices well beyond what their computers were worth).

Bottom line, this move by Shimano USA, will increase the sales of Campy Record, especially if Campy's new
pricing for 2004 is less than that of Shimano USA. And they are forgetting that while Lance is riding Shimano
equipped bikes, it's the man who won 5 Tours de France, not the equipment.

I'll let all know what the Japanese pricing for the DA group when I find out.

Cheers!

Stu


Carl Fogel wrote:

"Stuart J. Armour" wrote in message ...

It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this
interesting given Shimano USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order
retailers.

2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is
43,000 yen or about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for
34,000 yen, about $280.00)
2003 DA crank - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about
$300.00


[snip]

Stu

Dear Stu,

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm guessing that you're in Japan,
that the Shimano cranks are manufactured there, and that you're
comparing the prices for cranks shipped from a Japanese factory
to a Japanese bike shop and picked up by customers, to the prices
for the same cranks shipped from Japan to mail order warehouses
in the U.S. and then shipped to private homes.

Years ago, a Honda motorcycle dealer patiently explained to me
that yes, the clutch lever was expensive, but that it took half a
dozen people to get it into my grubby little paws between
Colorado and Japan, and they all liked to feed their families,
so maybe I shouldn't have broken it in the first place.

It's not as if shipping is free, running a mail order house is
a charity, or Shimano cranks are a high-volume, low-margin
business. It's a luxury trade, with luxury prices. Curse that
evil Sheldon Brown, that wicked Andrew Muzi, and all those other
dealers for not offering me parts at cost!

Another way to look at the vast profits squeezed out of the
helpless public by capitalist bloodsuckers is to compare their
their apparent profits to the sales tax and the UPS shipping
for the item. On a $400 crank delivered to my door, UPS is
likely to ask for $10-15 to cover shipping and insurance, while
my city, county, and state firmly (but mistakenly) believe that
I will pay $29.60 in taxes. Should the middle-men who do far
more settle for a lot less?

The bicycle-parts middle-men are unlikely to have the economies
of scale enjoyed by UPS and the government. Until you've run
a successful mail-order house or local bike shop for a few years,
beware of setting their prices to suit your convenience.

(No, I'm not a bicycle dealer. I do, occasionally, have to explain
to medical offices that I don't drive across town to plug their
printers back in for less than they tip the pizza delivery-man.)

But it certainly is interesting to see what people are paying
for bicycle parts elsewhere--thanks!

Carl Fogel

--
"Refrain from throwing your bicycle in public. It shows poor upbringing." -
Jacquie Phelan

sarmor- 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price
is
43,000 yen or about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for
34,000 yen, about $280.00)
2003 DA crank - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about
$300.00 BRBR

I think you have to use a different measure than just dollars to yen exchange
rate...something like percentage of something else, like rent or something to
get a decent picture of actual price. Japan has been holding the dollar
low(weak) artificially for a long time, so price comparisons just looking at
the exchange rate can be misleading.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

richard- Would that include the $850 plastic cranks, rev. 2 in your
comparison?
Can you get a set of 165mm carbon Record cranks in a triple over there
yet? BRBR

yes and no...Can't get 2004 DA in 165 either or in any triple...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
: I think you have to use a different measure than just dollars to yen exchange
: rate...something like percentage of something else, like rent or something to
: get a decent picture of actual price. Japan has been holding the dollar
: low(weak) artificially for a long time, so price comparisons just looking at
: the exchange rate can be misleading.

Big Macs. amazingly we were just talking about this in the more tedious
and surprisingly still not dead thread: "Not sure what to make of this..."
--
david reuteler

Peter,

Sorry for the delay, but I was gathering more information.
Well, if the yen rate was wildly fluctuating, you might have a point, however,
with 1 exception about 7 years ago the yen rate has been fairly constant in the
105 -115 range (that's what I buy it at, not what the official rate is, add about
2-3 yen per dollar for the official rate). That would give a dollar price
fluctuation for a 36,000 yen DA crank of $342.00 for the 105 rate and $313.00 for
the 115.
The mail order price for the DA 7701 has been between $189.00 (now) and I
believe a high of $210.00 (what I paid 3 1/2 years ago). That fluctuation can
be explained by the yen to dollar rate. And the whole time, the Japanese list
price remained constant at 36,000.
See what I'm talking about? If Shimano prices went up equally on all the
components then the yen rate and other factors (shipping, customs, etc.) would be
the cause of the drastic jump in the price to the US consumer, but the new XTR
group has gone from about 45% less than the Japanese list price (converted to
dollars) to 10% more than that. The DA group is about even as you can see below
(and is at a 104 yen to the dollar exchange rate). That's a 55% jump in price for
XTR and 45% for Dura Ace! And you know the dealer price for the 7701 so you have
a much better idea than I do what Shimano USA was really paying for the parts
from Japan plus the shipping, etc. charges. Is Shimano really that much better
only in the US that Shimano USA figures that they can gauge the consumer with a
price hike that much? (They are probably counting on no one back there getting
information like this)
As I said in a previous posting as long as Campy doesn't drastically increase
the price on the Record group (and it doesn't look like it will, I just checked
at Chicago Bike and it looks like it will be around the same price as Shimano
USA's pricing or a little bit less, depending on what the hubs go for) it will be
a goood year for Campy.
Just returned from my LBS and got a copy of the Shimano retail list.
Interesting that the parts that aren't 10S specific actually went down some,
while (as you would expect) the 10S components cost a bit more (there are a
couple of anomalys but not enough to change my point). Also Shimano has
apparently dropped the 7701 double crank (makes sense they do have a new one out)
while retaining the 7703 triple.
Yen price (from my LBS list) and dollar cost from a popular (and authorized!) US
on-line retailer below.

Part Yen dollar
Crank 7800 37,600 366.00
7703 40,000 270.00

STI 7800 39,600 385.00
7703 39,000 250.00

Brake 7800 23,500 225.00
7700 26,000 145.00

FR Hub 7800 10,500 102.00
7700 8,700 56.00

I'll now get off the soap box. It seems apparent to me that Shimano USA is in
the process of stiffing the marketplace, and the only way to get them to be more
realistic is for the buyers to object. Failing that the sheep will continue to
be shorn! Maybe this should be the subject of a "Golden Fleece Award"!


Cheers,

Stu


Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

sarmor- 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price
is
43,000 yen or about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for
34,000 yen, about $280.00)
2003 DA crank - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about
$300.00 BRBR

I think you have to use a different measure than just dollars to yen exchange
rate...something like percentage of something else, like rent or something to
get a decent picture of actual price. Japan has been holding the dollar
low(weak) artificially for a long time, so price comparisons just looking at
the exchange rate can be misleading.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

--
"Refrain from throwing your bicycle in public. It shows poor upbringing." -
Jacquie Phelan