Bottle holder

On 5/24/2019 7:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 07:55:44 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 10:33 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:17:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when
drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration,
at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can
change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner.

It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any
course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress
concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a
partial refund if that school is still in existence.

Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just
about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either
manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been
assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember
ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended
to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some
specific manner.

So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember
that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or
any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are
discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through
a base material.

We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of
holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by
journeyman machinists.

I assume that you are referring to the following
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html

If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what
you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the
time to "read up" on what you are trying to say.

The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical,
holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article,
that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good
structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo,
referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick
steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the
terminal deck across Fremont Street.

Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes.
Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install
the cylindrical revnuts.

For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut,
angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie.


Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong?

I'm working from memory now (an always hazardous undertaking) but I
think that the problem with the Comet wasn't so much the window shape
so much as the fuselage expanding and contracting when pressurized.
Apparently that had never been a problem with previous aircraft.

After all, more modern airplanes have essentially square windows :-)

Huh? That's not right.

https://media.cntraveller.in/wp-cont...x-8-window.jpg

I don't think there are any, not in the last 40 years anyway.

Hmmm... a bit of face saving is in order :-)
See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZZ0qyXNOV4
or even
https://tinyurl.com/y3tgdhrw


Good point, thanks.

I was thinking of the passenger rows where the stresses are
probably different from the front windows.

In theory:
https://siemensplm.i.lithium.com/t5/...564EFDF2?v=1.0

and in practice:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...-4-review.html
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 24 May 2019 18:42:37 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/24/2019 6:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 02:24:00 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most
machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in
the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine
you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with
the scrapper.

Well even without going to machinists school, deburring edges and holes
is a pretty obvious thing that most people know to do.

I see... and you think that "most people" have a flat file and a
triangular scrapper right there in their tool box?


Among those with a Kennedy tool box, yes and yes. Love this
little Israeli deburr:

http://www.bartsupply.com/gallery/pr...haviv_tool.jpg

I just had a look at Amazon and a Kennedy "machining's tool box is
almost $600 :-( Back when I was working at the trade my whole box,
tools and apron didn't cost that much and we had to supply our own 1"
and 2" micrometers and they had to be either Starret or Brown & Sharp.

and a couple of Diamond Debs too.

That said, "most people" probably have a crappy claw hammer,
a screwdriver with flat/Phillips #2 flipover from the $1
table and a can opener. They don't know how to use the can
opener. This is based on my research of being asked to help
out with various household problems at various households.
Based on those experiences, "no" is usually the best response.

Or, "I charge $10 an hour" :-)

Or, as I remember seeing somewhere, "$10 an hour and if you tried to
fix it first than $20 an hour".
--
cheers,

John B.

On 5/24/2019 8:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 18:42:37 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/24/2019 6:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 02:24:00 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most
machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in
the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine
you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with
the scrapper.

Well even without going to machinists school, deburring edges and holes
is a pretty obvious thing that most people know to do.

I see... and you think that "most people" have a flat file and a
triangular scrapper right there in their tool box?


Among those with a Kennedy tool box, yes and yes. Love this
little Israeli deburr:

http://www.bartsupply.com/gallery/pr...haviv_tool.jpg

I just had a look at Amazon and a Kennedy "machining's tool box is
almost $600 :-( Back when I was working at the trade my whole box,
tools and apron didn't cost that much and we had to supply our own 1"
and 2" micrometers and they had to be either Starret or Brown & Sharp.

and a couple of Diamond Debs too.

That said, "most people" probably have a crappy claw hammer,
a screwdriver with flat/Phillips #2 flipover from the $1
table and a can opener. They don't know how to use the can
opener. This is based on my research of being asked to help
out with various household problems at various households.
Based on those experiences, "no" is usually the best response.

Or, "I charge $10 an hour" :-)

Or, as I remember seeing somewhere, "$10 an hour and if you tried to
fix it first than $20 an hour".

Mine was a hundred, about the same as a midprice race frame
at the time (less than a Masi, more than a Gitane). Good
value IMHO. My Starret micrometer set was a gift from a
retired machinist.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 24 May 2019 18:33:34 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/24/2019 6:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 02:19:37 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 1:05 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Further to Jobst's comments. I'm afraid I know many people who see no
problems what so ever in drilling holes in frames - literally every
custom frame builder I have ever been in contact with will put as many
bottle cages on your new bike as you ask for. And every cage requires
two holes to mount.

Hopefully you realize the difference between a custom frame builder
drilling a frame for cage mounts and the owner of a Huffy doing the same.

Well, tell us, oh great pundit. Do the frame builders, who often know
very little about the metals that they work with, buy special tubes to
allow them to drill holes in them? Does Columbus, for example,
manufacturer special frame tubes for those who wish to mount bottle
cages?

Or does Huffy buy special tubes that are specified by the maker NOT to
be drilled?

In another post I believe you made a statement that you posted about
things that you knew about, so please tell us when and when not to
drill holes to mount bottle cages.

The former almost certainly has jigs for the task and is able to put in
the mounts prior to assembling and painting the frame. If it's a steel
or titanium frame, which is much more likely to be the case for a custom
frame builder, then they're probably brazing on the mounts, not using
Rivnuts.

Actually, I wonder if you know what you are talking about? Titanium is
a rather difficult metal to work with and at elevated temperatures
reacts with air by bursting into flame. It can be welded using MIG
with sufficient gas flow but cannot be welded with an open flame...

Let me give you some information from
https://www.thefabricator.com/articl...ou-can-weld-it

Any time the metal reaches a temperature of 900 to 1,000 degrees F,
brittle oxygen-stabilized alpha phase (or \u03b1-case) can form not
only on the weld surface and its back side, but also on grinding
tools2. Frictional heat, especially from aluminum oxide (Al2O3)
wheels, can create high enough temperatures to embrittle the surface.
Carbide-grit wheels are better because they have no aluminum to
contaminate the weld. A gentle touch is best, because titanium has a
low thermal conductivity and needs to be kept below the 500 degree F
mark, where scaling begins.
----------

Note that most brazing done on bicycle frames is done with either
silver solder - melting point in the 450 F degree region - or brass -
~850 F - which is hot enough to cause very significant changes in a
titanium parent metal.

So, yes, one can braze titanium but only if it is done in an inert
atmosphere. I doubt and many, if any, frame maker has an inert
atmosphere box large enough to hold a bicycle and thus probably brazed
fittings on a titanium bicycle frame are rare enough the be non
existent.
--
cheers,

John B.


The first several years of titanium frames were indeed
welded in inert-gas booths. Not very different from a
bicycle frame glass bead booth really.

Modern shielded-arc systems with inert gas flowing inside
the tubes is the standard practice now.

I think I've mentioned that. The last time I certified (U.S.A.F.) I
got my stainless and aluminum samples done and passed and had to wait
for another day for the guy I came with to finish and tried welding in
a box. Surprisingly I "passed" with my second sample.

Some time later I visited a friend who was a civilian working at an
A.F. Base and was (sort of) bragging about how I passed my
certification for Titanium and he says, Oh Yes. We weld it all the
time here with just a MIG torch and backing gas.

Oh and I think you mistyped silver braze temps, usually
1100F &up, and brazing temps roughly 1600F and up. 450
degrees F is in the cookie-baking zone, even below my lead work.

Yes. 450 degrees is awfully low for silver brazing :-(

I once came across some "silver solder" rod with a liquid temperature
in the 600 degree range and used it to braze some brake posts on a
frame I had. I later found that this low temp stuff was NOT
recommended for ferrous metals :-( Apparently it has a high cadmium
content and that is bad. Rather then try to remove the posts and all
the traces of the cadmium containing "solder" I just left them and so
far... maybe 6 or 7 years later they are still there.

--
cheers,

John B.

On 5/24/2019 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 18:33:34 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/24/2019 6:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 02:19:37 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 1:05 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Further to Jobst's comments. I'm afraid I know many people who see no
problems what so ever in drilling holes in frames - literally every
custom frame builder I have ever been in contact with will put as many
bottle cages on your new bike as you ask for. And every cage requires
two holes to mount.

Hopefully you realize the difference between a custom frame builder
drilling a frame for cage mounts and the owner of a Huffy doing the same.

Well, tell us, oh great pundit. Do the frame builders, who often know
very little about the metals that they work with, buy special tubes to
allow them to drill holes in them? Does Columbus, for example,
manufacturer special frame tubes for those who wish to mount bottle
cages?

Or does Huffy buy special tubes that are specified by the maker NOT to
be drilled?

In another post I believe you made a statement that you posted about
things that you knew about, so please tell us when and when not to
drill holes to mount bottle cages.

The former almost certainly has jigs for the task and is able to put in
the mounts prior to assembling and painting the frame. If it's a steel
or titanium frame, which is much more likely to be the case for a custom
frame builder, then they're probably brazing on the mounts, not using
Rivnuts.

Actually, I wonder if you know what you are talking about? Titanium is
a rather difficult metal to work with and at elevated temperatures
reacts with air by bursting into flame. It can be welded using MIG
with sufficient gas flow but cannot be welded with an open flame...

Let me give you some information from
https://www.thefabricator.com/articl...ou-can-weld-it

Any time the metal reaches a temperature of 900 to 1,000 degrees F,
brittle oxygen-stabilized alpha phase (or \u03b1-case) can form not
only on the weld surface and its back side, but also on grinding
tools2. Frictional heat, especially from aluminum oxide (Al2O3)
wheels, can create high enough temperatures to embrittle the surface.
Carbide-grit wheels are better because they have no aluminum to
contaminate the weld. A gentle touch is best, because titanium has a
low thermal conductivity and needs to be kept below the 500 degree F
mark, where scaling begins.
----------

Note that most brazing done on bicycle frames is done with either
silver solder - melting point in the 450 F degree region - or brass -
~850 F - which is hot enough to cause very significant changes in a
titanium parent metal.

So, yes, one can braze titanium but only if it is done in an inert
atmosphere. I doubt and many, if any, frame maker has an inert
atmosphere box large enough to hold a bicycle and thus probably brazed
fittings on a titanium bicycle frame are rare enough the be non
existent.
--
cheers,

John B.


The first several years of titanium frames were indeed
welded in inert-gas booths. Not very different from a
bicycle frame glass bead booth really.

Modern shielded-arc systems with inert gas flowing inside
the tubes is the standard practice now.

I think I've mentioned that. The last time I certified (U.S.A.F.) I
got my stainless and aluminum samples done and passed and had to wait
for another day for the guy I came with to finish and tried welding in
a box. Surprisingly I "passed" with my second sample.

Some time later I visited a friend who was a civilian working at an
A.F. Base and was (sort of) bragging about how I passed my
certification for Titanium and he says, Oh Yes. We weld it all the
time here with just a MIG torch and backing gas.

Oh and I think you mistyped silver braze temps, usually
1100F &up, and brazing temps roughly 1600F and up. 450
degrees F is in the cookie-baking zone, even below my lead work.

Yes. 450 degrees is awfully low for silver brazing :-(

I once came across some "silver solder" rod with a liquid temperature
in the 600 degree range and used it to braze some brake posts on a
frame I had. I later found that this low temp stuff was NOT
recommended for ferrous metals :-( Apparently it has a high cadmium
content and that is bad. Rather then try to remove the posts and all
the traces of the cadmium containing "solder" I just left them and so
far... maybe 6 or 7 years later they are still there.

I just wandered around the InterWebs a bit and the high
(50%+) silver content with cadmium super-low-temp products
are indicated for joining silver and also copper electrical
connectors at just under 600C (not F). I have no experience
with those.

My 45% silver braze, no cad, is 1150F = 620C. Same temp
range different product entirely.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 24 May 2019 20:06:02 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/24/2019 7:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 07:55:44 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 10:33 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:17:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when
drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration,
at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can
change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner.

It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any
course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress
concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a
partial refund if that school is still in existence.

Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just
about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either
manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been
assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember
ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended
to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some
specific manner.

So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember
that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or
any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are
discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through
a base material.

We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of
holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by
journeyman machinists.

I assume that you are referring to the following
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html

If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what
you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the
time to "read up" on what you are trying to say.

The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical,
holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article,
that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good
structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo,
referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick
steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the
terminal deck across Fremont Street.

Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes.
Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install
the cylindrical revnuts.

For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut,
angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie.


Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong?

I'm working from memory now (an always hazardous undertaking) but I
think that the problem with the Comet wasn't so much the window shape
so much as the fuselage expanding and contracting when pressurized.
Apparently that had never been a problem with previous aircraft.

After all, more modern airplanes have essentially square windows :-)

Huh? That's not right.

https://media.cntraveller.in/wp-cont...x-8-window.jpg

I don't think there are any, not in the last 40 years anyway.

Hmmm... a bit of face saving is in order :-)
See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZZ0qyXNOV4
or even
https://tinyurl.com/y3tgdhrw


Good point, thanks.

I was thinking of the passenger rows where the stresses are
probably different from the front windows.

In theory:
https://siemensplm.i.lithium.com/t5/...564EFDF2?v=1.0

and in practice:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...-4-review.html

If you want some detailed studies originating from the water tank
testing see
https://aerospaceengineeringblog.com...d-comet-crash/

The design modifications are a bit more complicated than simply
rounding window corners and included "crack-stoppers are now placed
between frame-cutouts that take the shape of circumferential
stiffeners that break-up the fuselage into multiple sections and thus
prevent the crack from propagating from one window to the next".

The most important change was said to be the change over from a "
SAFE-LIFE, which means that the structure was designed to sustain the
required fatigue life with no initial damage and no accumulation of
damage during service" to a "FAIL-SAFE design philosophy was developed
in the late 1950's. All materials are assumed to contain a finite
initial defect size before entering service that may grow due to
fatigue loading in-service."

--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 24 May 2019 20:34:19 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/24/2019 8:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 18:42:37 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/24/2019 6:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 02:24:00 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most
machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in
the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine
you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with
the scrapper.

Well even without going to machinists school, deburring edges and holes
is a pretty obvious thing that most people know to do.

I see... and you think that "most people" have a flat file and a
triangular scrapper right there in their tool box?


Among those with a Kennedy tool box, yes and yes. Love this
little Israeli deburr:

http://www.bartsupply.com/gallery/pr...haviv_tool.jpg

I just had a look at Amazon and a Kennedy "machining's tool box is
almost $600 :-( Back when I was working at the trade my whole box,
tools and apron didn't cost that much and we had to supply our own 1"
and 2" micrometers and they had to be either Starret or Brown & Sharp.

and a couple of Diamond Debs too.

That said, "most people" probably have a crappy claw hammer,
a screwdriver with flat/Phillips #2 flipover from the $1
table and a can opener. They don't know how to use the can
opener. This is based on my research of being asked to help
out with various household problems at various households.
Based on those experiences, "no" is usually the best response.

Or, "I charge $10 an hour" :-)

Or, as I remember seeing somewhere, "$10 an hour and if you tried to
fix it first than $20 an hour".

Mine was a hundred, about the same as a midprice race frame
at the time (less than a Masi, more than a Gitane). Good
value IMHO. My Starret micrometer set was a gift from a
retired machinist.

I had an antique, I guess you'd call it, wooden Kennedy box given to
me. I was always afraid to actually use it for a tool box as I was
afraid of damaging it. So it just sat in the garage looking pretty :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 24 May 2019 15:22:12 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 04:40:50 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:46:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??

Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and
sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-)

Yep, YMMV, but I've always found it cheaper to just buy a new drill set
or collection of drills than fuzing around trying to sharpen them.

OTOH, I don't earn my living drilling holes and it rapidly became
obvious that as far as "drill sharpening devices" went one
size/type/style didn't fit all and apart from a pileof files, that's
enough.

I'll go as far as touching up a chain saw every cut on dry redgum or
yellow box(realraiway sleepers), but life is too short to touch up a
drill for every hole.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But sharpening drills is
just two passes across the grinding wheel and a chain saw has a
multitude of teeth :-)

If you have a shop, then I guess you're bound to have a grinding wheel or
three, but no shop here. Nor do i have a vice standing by with a groove
to hold drills so I can rub a file over them. Then there is the fact
that I just can't file a flat surface for the life of me.

On Sat, 25 May 2019 08:08:37 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I just had a look at Amazon and a Kennedy "machining's tool box is
almost $600 :-(

I paid $35 for my first one in about 1970. I currently have 3 of
them, including one copy my father made from mahogany. They can be
had used on eBay for $100 to $150 including shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=kennedy+520+machinist+tool+box
or new from various sources for $300 to $400:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=shop&q=kennedy+machinist+tool+box+520

I'll reply to accusations of ineptitude for failing to deburr the hose
clamp later. Verrry bizzeee for a few daze.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/24/2019 8:24 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 11:16:37 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 15:18:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

One of the A.F. machine shops I was assigned to had no drill
sharpening "utensils" what so ever as the Shop Chief, a grizzled old
fellow that did his apprenticeship at Morse Twist Drill, I believe,
said that sharpening a drill was such a basic skill that everybody
must know how to do it. :-)

Reminds me of the time I bought a booklet called something like "Tools
and their Uses". Since it was intended for Navy inductees who didn't
know anything, I figured it would tell me how to sharpen a pocket
knife.

All it said about pocket knives was that they should be kept sharp.

Good Lord! And you a married woman? and you don't know how to sharpen
a knife?

You just say, "Honey, this knife is sooo dull that I can't cut this
steak meat... would you like hamburger for supper?

:-)


--
- Frank Krygowski