Bottle holder

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 10:39:16 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/20/2019 9:50 AM, AK wrote:

snip

Ralph already considers me an infidel because I have a Huffy.

I can't afford those fancy pants $4000 bikes.

:-)

But you can probably afford the tools necessary to properly install a
pair of Rivnuts. You can purchase all the necessary tools for under
$100, and you already may have some of them. Some of the tools you can
jury-rig, but don't skimp on the drilling jig.

$15 Rivnut insert setting tool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N420A2D
$ 7 Rivnuts: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NGK6UBY (for aluminum frame)
$29 Drilling Jig: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222390828275
$13 Triangular Scraper: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DJ61QD4
$ 2 Liquid metal filler https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ALDYJI
$ 2 7mm drill bit https://www.ebay.com/itm/392072184033
$30 Close quarters drill
https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-variable-speed-reversible-close-quarters-drill-60610.html
1/8" drill bit (or 3mm).

One thing to be careful about is getting all the metal filings out of
the frame after you drill the holes. When Rivnuts are installed at the
factory it's done before the frame tubes are welded, brazed, or glued
together so the metal pieces can be easily removed. But once the frame
is assembled you'll need to shake out those pieces through the seat tube
or bottom bracket or headset openings.

Or find a custom frame builder or bicycle shop that may already have all
the proper equipment, and will do it for less than the cost of all the
stuff you'll need to do the job properly yourself.

But personally, I'd use clamps. For under $15 you can buy clamps
specifically designed for this purpose.

But two Rivnuts are a LOT less expensive than your Less than $15.00 clamps and are a lot better looking when installed.

Cheers

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 10:39:16 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
Snipped
But you can probably afford the tools necessary to properly install a
pair of Rivnuts. You can purchase all the necessary tools for under
$100, and you already may have some of them. Some of the tools you can
jury-rig, but don't skimp on the drilling jig.

$15 Rivnut insert setting tool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N420A2D
$ 7 Rivnuts: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NGK6UBY (for aluminum frame)
$29 Drilling Jig: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222390828275
$13 Triangular Scraper: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DJ61QD4
$ 2 Liquid metal filler https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ALDYJI
$ 2 7mm drill bit https://www.ebay.com/itm/392072184033
$30 Close quarters drill
https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-variable-speed-reversible-close-quarters-drill-60610.html
1/8" drill bit (or 3mm).
Snipped

$15.00 Rivnut insert setting tool = not needed. You can set a Rivnut with a long bolt and a nut.
$7.00 Rivnuts. You can buy a couple of them from a good bicycle shop, custom frame builder or good fasteners store.
$29.00 drilling jig = not needed. Any normal electric drill can be used.
$13.00 triangular scraper = not needed.
$2.00 liquid metal filler = not needed
$30.00 close quarters drill = not needed.

$96.00 in NOT NEEDED TOOLS to install two Rivnuts? You have got to be kidding! Typical of you to VASTLY INFLATE the difficulty and cost of a simple project. Then again, if people buy from one of your recommended sites you usually get a nice kick back from that site. That's also typical of you.

I bet you turn more people off from bicycling than you get to take up bicycling.

Cheers

On 5/25/2019 3:26 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 10:39:16 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
Snipped
But you can probably afford the tools necessary to properly install a
pair of Rivnuts. You can purchase all the necessary tools for under
$100, and you already may have some of them. Some of the tools you can
jury-rig, but don't skimp on the drilling jig.

$15 Rivnut insert setting tool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N420A2D
$ 7 Rivnuts: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NGK6UBY (for aluminum frame)
$29 Drilling Jig: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222390828275
$13 Triangular Scraper: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DJ61QD4
$ 2 Liquid metal filler https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ALDYJI
$ 2 7mm drill bit https://www.ebay.com/itm/392072184033
$30 Close quarters drill
https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-variable-speed-reversible-close-quarters-drill-60610.html
1/8" drill bit (or 3mm).
Snipped

$15.00 Rivnut insert setting tool = not needed. You can set a Rivnut with a long bolt and a nut.
$7.00 Rivnuts. You can buy a couple of them from a good bicycle shop, custom frame builder or good fasteners store.
$29.00 drilling jig = not needed. Any normal electric drill can be used.
$13.00 triangular scraper = not needed.
$2.00 liquid metal filler = not needed
$30.00 close quarters drill = not needed.

$96.00 in NOT NEEDED TOOLS to install two Rivnuts? You have got to be kidding! Typical of you to VASTLY INFLATE the difficulty and cost of a simple project. Then again, if people buy from one of your recommended sites you usually get a nice kick back from that site. That's also typical of you.

Scharf used to use the same argument technique regarding dynamo lights:
listing the highest end, most expensive equipment as the only possible
way of using a dynamo headlight, and claiming that the result was still
dangerous.

I bet you turn more people off from bicycling than you get to take up bicycling.

Agreed.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 23 May 2019 11:10:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

IOW: Scratched by your hose clamp? Oh, if only there were a bike lane!!!

Never mind the bike lane. I want a fully stocked bicycle aid station
along my ride.

Back to the topic: I'm a big fan of deburring sharp edges. It takes only
a few seconds with a fine grinding wheel or a hand file.

I'm also a big fan of deburring. As I previously mentioned, the
exposed sharp corners were properly chamfered. However, since the end
of the stainless strap did not project from the clamp head, I
initially saw no need to deburr the sides. The sides had a rather
sharp burr resulting from my rather crude method of shortening the
strap. I just bent it back and forth until it broke, leaving a sharp
edge. In the original configuration, it would not have been a
problem. I noticed that the bottles were rather loose during the
ride, so I tightened the hose clamp screw. The allowed the end of the
stainless strap to project from the clamp head, which is was
eventually drew blood.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:10:50 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Actually if one selects the proper size hose clamp there shouldn't be
any "long end sticking out". and they do come in different sizes :-)

The height of the hose clamp head is about 12 mm. I tried to position
the clamp head under the water bottle, but the 12 mm was higher than
the space between the water bottle and the down tube. So, the clamp
was installed with the head on the side of the down tube. (There were
two back to back water bottles attached with two clamps).

The end of the stainless strap can be adjusted to hide under the
projecting adjustment screw. Like this:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2BzOxf-hBL._SX425_.jpg
Problem was that I couldn't break off the excess strap length with the
pliers in that position. I would have needed to mark the desired
length, unscrew the strap completely, break off the excess, and put it
back together. However, I didn't, resulting a later readjustment
causing the strap to project beyond the screw head.

If I had to do it again, I probably would try one of these "clamp
jackets":
https://www.clampjacket.com
Please note the availability of such a solution to this alleged
non-problem suggests that the problem might be quite real.
https://store.pyiinc.com/collections/clamp-jacket/products/clamp-jackets
$6 for 25 pcs in 1/2".


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 24 May 2019 15:28:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most
machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in
the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine
you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with
the scrapper.

Yep. Guilty as charged of modifying established water bottle mounting
conventions thereby creating a hazard to the rider, bystanders, and
the general public. For a nominal charge, I can supply a framed copy
of my confession.

Please note that I have a set of rotary tip deburring tools, some
triangle deburring tools, and various files. I'm known to use them
for deburring (when I can find them). Most of the drawings I've seen
specify in the the notes: "unless otherwise specified, break all sharp
edges".


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 25 May 2019 05:37:07 -0700, sms
wrote:

Or at least put some heat shrink tubing over the end.

I haven't tried it, but methinks that shrink tube will probably fall
off unless glued in place. These looks better and would probably work
better:
https://store.pyiinc.com/collections/clamp-jacket/products/clamp-jackets
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Clamp-Jacket-Hose-Clamp-Protectors-Black-25-Pack-Black-1-2/323294215483

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 25 May 2019 05:00:03 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 4:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 02:19:37 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 1:05 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Further to Jobst's comments. I'm afraid I know many people who see no
problems what so ever in drilling holes in frames - literally every
custom frame builder I have ever been in contact with will put as many
bottle cages on your new bike as you ask for. And every cage requires
two holes to mount.

Hopefully you realize the difference between a custom frame builder
drilling a frame for cage mounts and the owner of a Huffy doing the same.

Well, tell us, oh great pundit. Do the frame builders, who often know
very little about the metals that they work with, buy special tubes to
allow them to drill holes in them? Does Columbus, for example,
manufacturer special frame tubes for those who wish to mount bottle
cages?

I'm pretty certain that you understand that a frame builder adds things
like cage mounts to tubes prior to assembling the frame, whether
welding, brazing, or gluing.

But that is not the point at all. You have been arguing vehemently
that simply drilling holes in bike frames is Bad!

And, by the way, I doubt that many frame makers actually drill any
holes in frame tubes before assembling as it is hard to decide where
you want the bottle cage until you get the frame pretty well assembled
(so you can see where the other bits will be).

I'm also pretty certain that you know that a frame builder would almost
certainly own jig that they would be using in order to drill properly
spaced, accurate holes.

Well, I've built frames and I never had a jig, and the shop I built
frames in, owned by another bloke, had no jigs to "drill properly
spaced holes" simply because they aren't necessary.

You keep thinking that others are as inept as you so obviously are.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 25 May 2019 05:25:09 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 4:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 02:24:00 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most
machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in
the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine
you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with
the scrapper.

Well even without going to machinists school, deburring edges and holes
is a pretty obvious thing that most people know to do.

I see... and you think that "most people" have a flat file and a
triangular scrapper right there in their tool box?

A flat file, yes. A triangular scrapper, no. But I've managed to deburr
holes for many decades without one. I suppose I could buy a triangular
scrapper, but a countersink deburring bit works fine. For small holes
there are Dremel accessories with conical tips that can be used.

:-) It is pretty difficult to deburr a, oh say two inch, hole in a
piece you have mounted in the lathe with a countersink. Or a dremel
tool for that matter.

But thank you for making my point. Most people probably don't have the
tools to do the job properly. Since I've been building prototypes in
steel and aluminum chassis since I was about 12 years old, I have
accumulated the tools needed. I still have my vintage Lafayette chassis
punch kit
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/1211/10/lafayette-antique-radio-chassis-punch_1_b0bbb287cdd38f4742b8eb3a34687f4b.jpg
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 25 May 2019 05:37:07 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/24/2019 7:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2019 08:08:37 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I just had a look at Amazon and a Kennedy "machining's tool box is
almost $600 :-(

I paid $35 for my first one in about 1970. I currently have 3 of
them, including one copy my father made from mahogany. They can be
had used on eBay for $100 to $150 including shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=kennedy+520+machinist+tool+box
or new from various sources for $300 to $400:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=shop&q=kennedy+machinist+tool+box+520

I'll reply to accusations of ineptitude for failing to deburr the hose
clamp later. Verrry bizzeee for a few daze.

Or at least put some heat shrink tubing over the end.

I find all this emotion about hose clamps to be a bit... well
amateurish. After all the aircraft I used to work on were full of hose
clamps and no one seemed to get injured. See
https://tinyurl.com/y5xmgp8t
https://tinyurl.com/y66v5o3u
https://tinyurl.com/yxrk5wps
--
cheers,

John B.