A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

The death of rim brakes?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old March 14th 19, 02:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,796
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 2019-03-13 20:39, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 20:13:26 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/13/2019 7:46 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:40:16 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-13 16:09, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/13/2019 3:36 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 18:33, James wrote:
On 13/3/19 2:07 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive
and motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that
still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it
had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and
after the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim
brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I won't buy.


A bit of wet mud isn't the end of rim brakes. Hose them off and they'll
be fine.


We have lot of bits of wet mud. The rims of my first MTB looked
horribly grooved after the first 1000mi. Trails here are really muddy
in winter.

The other advantage of disc brakes is that they can be cooled off on
long descents with a quick spritz from the bottle. Phssst ... HISSSS
... and on you go. No need for a lenghty cool-off period.

What does that do to the temper of the metal? E.g. will it
harden/embrittle? Not sure if this is a problem, but worth checking.


I doubt it does much because I do not ride them until they glow white.
The only side effect I noticed was that they are noisy the first mile
afterwards. No squeal but more like HOOOO. Loud. So in areas with lots
of cattle this isn't a good idea.

You must be using shoddy brakes. F1 disc brakes run red hot
https://www.pinterest.es/pin/35114072064401057/
And not only that but F1 brakes use carbon fiber discs and are so much
lighter in weight then old fashioned metal discs.

As for glowing white hot? That would be in the 2,300 - 2,700 degree
(F) range and, I might add that steel at 700 degrees (F) has lost
about half of it's strength. At 2,000 degrees it must be similar to
wet paper.



Nowhere near those temps. Something around 100C will give
steam. Bicycle discs are stainless at any rate. The pad
material will debond from the back plate well before any
temperature effect on the disc.


I was responding to the statement that, "I do not ride them until they
glow white" (above) :-)


Well, I don't.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #102  
Old March 14th 19, 02:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,796
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 2019-03-13 16:11, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 15:32:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/12/2019 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically
all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone
but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look
and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are
these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around
automotive and motorcycles. How many new cars and
motorcycles are there that still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim
brakes are inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on
the road bikes and it had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a
descent on pavement, I reached in and after the usual and
expected one-second of zero brake action the rim brakes came
on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I
won't buy.


How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in the
stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against the
steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a technology.

Supposedly there are bikes used for a long downhill ride in Hawaii that
all have large drum brakes because anything else would overheat.


There is something wrong here as disk brakes were originally built to
avoid the problem of drum brakes' failure when heated by long
descents. In fact I remember seeing logging trucks in the mountains of
California using water cooled drum brakes.


Both can overheat. Water spritzing is something that MTB riders
occasionally also use when on long descents and with a load.

An overheated brake is no fun. A friend had that. I saw him skid through
the last curve, foot out, rear wheel locked, bike partially sideways,
dust plumes wafting off. His front brake had faded. Luckily he is a good
dirt bike rider with the correct instincts about what to do.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #103  
Old March 14th 19, 03:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,796
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 2019-03-13 17:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/13/2019 5:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/12/2019 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically
all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone
but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look
and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are
these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around
automotive and motorcycles. How many new cars and
motorcycles are there that still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim
brakes are inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on
the road bikes and it had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a
descent on pavement, I reached in and after the usual and
expected one-second of zero brake action the rim brakes came
on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I
won't buy.


How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely
remained in the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk
of wood pressed against the steel ring of the wheels to
brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a technology.

Supposedly there are bikes used for a long downhill ride in
Hawaii that all have large drum brakes because anything else
would overheat.


Well, technically not as efficient as a larger disc though.


IIRC they were really big drum brakes, not the usual standard fare. More
like what you'd see on older mopeds.


p.s. My fixed gear bike with single SP caliper up front would attract no
attention on the street 100~120 years ago and works (goes & stops) fine
for me. Maybe not for you.


I had one of those as a kid. It's ok for city riding. However, despite
promising my mom never to do that I took it out onto clandestine
motocross tracks in the forest and there it wasn't performing so great.
On a rainy day it could be scary.

Currently I have hydraulics and 8" rotors front and back on my MTB. Best
bicycle brake system I ever had. Works all the time regardless of
weather. Even on pavement it has saved me from a crash into the side of
a Porsche when its %^@#!! driver cut me off. That was due to the absence
of the usual 1-2sec "free-fall" of rim brakes during rain.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #104  
Old March 14th 19, 03:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,474
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in the
stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against the
steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.


Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #105  
Old March 14th 19, 03:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,293
Default The death of rim brakes?

John B. Slocomb writes:

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:53:33 +1100, James
wrote:

On 14/3/19 9:36 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 18:33, James wrote:
On 13/3/19 2:07 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive
and motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that
still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it
had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and
after the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim
brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I won't buy.


A bit of wet mud isn't the end of rim brakes.Â* Hose them off and they'll
be fine.


We have lot of bits of wet mud. The rims of my first MTB looked horribly
grooved after the first 1000mi. Trails here are really muddy in winter.

The other advantage of disc brakes is that they can be cooled off on
long descents with a quick spritz from the bottle. Phssst ... HISSSS ...
and on you go. No need for a lenghty cool-off period.


I don't know how my rims survived, MTB riding the wet and muddy forests
tracks in Winter.

Furthermore, how did I survive inferior rim brakes without the chance to
spritz from my bottle and "Phssst ... HISSSS ..."...

I shall commence counting my lucky stars.


Move to California and you will be able to ride with the Mountain
Lions :-)


Those are pussycats compared to the drop bears in Oz.
  #106  
Old March 14th 19, 04:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,474
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/14/2019 12:18 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

One time I saw a lot of black bears t my right as they were eating berries that had grown in an area that'd been burnt over a number of years ago. There was no forest there. It's kind of neat to be able to see the bears from a nice safe distance. VBEG LOL


For many years I hoped to be able to spot a bear while riding my bike.
My chance finally came while riding in Glacier National Park. Saw the
mother and two cubs.

Much closer to home, I've spotted a coyote and a bobcat while riding, as
well as almost any other mammal one might mention. Bald eagles, once
rare, are now so common here that they barely count. But so far, no wolves.

We have Bobcats and Lynxes up there and I understand that cougars are becoming more common too.


No cougars yet either. My only lynx spotting was decades ago, hiking in
the Canadian Rockies. I was amazed.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #107  
Old March 14th 19, 04:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,474
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/14/2019 3:43 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:54:41 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:

I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)


Probably the same thing they think when their dog or cat gets attacked by a coyote, coydog or hawk.


I'm actually hoping for something to take the tiny yappy dog next door.
The neighbors are lovely people except for a total inability to
understand how much their dog irritates others, especially after 11:30
PM or before 7:30 AM.

The dog barks whenever it sees something interesting. But it is
interested in everything. And the bark is piercing. Another neighbor
says he can no longer sleep with his windows open.

It's a tiny Yorkie. A cougar or coyote would be overkill. A Great Horned
Owl would do nicely.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #108  
Old March 14th 19, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 557
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Snipped

I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns
you on, fine.
IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited
by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads.

I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would.

YMMV

Cheers

I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in
lots of 36.


Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon are ~$0.27 (US)
each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near that price point.
If they look reliable I'll use them to build wheels at a local
non-profit / pro-bono community bike shop.

Mark J.


I couldn't find the site I originally quoted :-(
But there were a number of sites offering spokes in sets of 36 for
$10.00 or less. Given that the TREK bikes I see listed range from
$11,799, with disc's, to $849, with conventional brakes, a measly ten
bucks is chicken feed.


For high-end Treks, sure. For functional recycled utility bikes that
will be sold on a sliding scale or given away, not so much.

The shop is sitting on a bunch of new donated rims, and it harvests
hubs, many decent ones, from otherwise dead donated wheels. My goal is
to turn those resources into working wheels through donated labor. Put
it all together, and it's marginally competitive with complete wholesale
wheels due to the cost of spokes. (And it's a fair question whether
wheel building is an efficient use of donated skilled time.)

My conjecture is that the rise of the boxed-wheels market has raised the
price of spokes dramatically, as spokes' drop in wholesale/retail volume
requires a much higher price to be worth stocking. I remember getting
basic but name-brand spokes for 20 cents each, now it's closer to a dollar.

Andy M., did I guess right about the market?

Mark J.

  #109  
Old March 14th 19, 05:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,400
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:59:35 PM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Snipped

I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns
you on, fine.
IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited
by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads.

I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would.

YMMV

Cheers

I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in
lots of 36.

Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon are ~$0.27 (US)
each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near that price point.

  #110  
Old March 14th 19, 05:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,293
Default The death of rim brakes?

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 3/14/2019 3:43 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:54:41 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:

I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)


Probably the same thing they think when their dog or cat gets
attacked by a coyote, coydog or hawk.


I'm actually hoping for something to take the tiny yappy dog next
door. The neighbors are lovely people except for a total inability to
understand how much their dog irritates others, especially after 11:30
PM or before 7:30 AM.

The dog barks whenever it sees something interesting. But it is
interested in everything. And the bark is piercing. Another neighbor
says he can no longer sleep with his windows open.

It's a tiny Yorkie. A cougar or coyote would be overkill. A Great
Horned Owl would do nicely.


I'll bet a great blue heron would do as well. Amazing what they can
choke down.

--
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DuraAce 7800 brakes v. 6600 brakes RS Techniques 4 February 1st 09 05:13 AM
Delta Brakes for sale, capy c group brakes vintage! [email protected] Marketplace 0 December 1st 08 12:47 PM
Generic Brakes vs Dura-Ace 7700 brakes ? RS Techniques 19 June 10th 06 01:30 AM
ANyone fail cast tender eye, death be to you, death come quickly whoreBanger Australia 0 June 3rd 06 11:47 AM
disc brakes on front, v-brakes on rear Per Elmsäter Mountain Biking 24 October 21st 03 10:42 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2019 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.