Tomorrow's Bicycle Drive?

On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of things look quite efficient without a load on it.

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:33:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of things look quite efficient without a load on it.

IIRC the 98% efficiency of a derailleur system is reached ONLY when the gear is equal to a one to one ratio. I might be wrong about that but my understanding is that that 98% efficiency is ONLY reached with ONE particular gear. Other gears are less efficient.

With the driveshaft system shown upthread I can't but wonder how it'd wear and how soon the interface of the gears would get sloppy. Plus as was also mentioned upthread, with that driveshaft it might not be too easy to do an emergency wheel swap.

Cheers

On 6/10/2019 12:31 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 3:31:41 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 7/6/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:38:22 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:03:01 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 06:26:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

Why did shaft drives fail?
Solp and flex were one. Road crap is another. Hard to maintain.
I can not wait to see that drive train after a days mtn biking on wet,
rainy days.

Complexities? And so we have hydraulic brake systems as opposed to
simply mechanical brakes, electronic shifters as opposed to simple
mechanical systems, and so on.

Yep, all extra points of unreliability.

The real relaibility test is, can I ride it home when stuff fails.

You mean like when the chain breaks or a wheel "tacos"?

I've used fencing wire to fix chains.
It was the first and last time I did a long tour on a new brand of chain.
In any case, you can scooter it. BTDT.

And I've flattened a taco wheel enough to get it rotating. No brakes
though, except shoe leather.


In addition, if you carry a multi tool with a chain breaker in your
saddle bag as I have, you can fix a broken chain in minutes.

--
JS

True but shaft drives made properly do not break.

So they are like chains then?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/10/2019 2:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:33:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of things look quite efficient without a load on it.

IIRC the 98% efficiency of a derailleur system is reached ONLY when the gear is equal to a one to one ratio. I might be wrong about that but my understanding is that that 98% efficiency is ONLY reached with ONE particular gear. Other gears are less efficient.

With the driveshaft system shown upthread I can't but wonder how it'd wear and how soon the interface of the gears would get sloppy. Plus as was also mentioned upthread, with that driveshaft it might not be too easy to do an emergency wheel swap.

Cheers


Yes, there's that.
For bevel gears the stated '90~95%' is per set and you need
two so likely closer to 80%.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 12:52:03 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:33:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of things look quite efficient without a load on it.

IIRC the 98% efficiency of a derailleur system is reached ONLY when the gear is equal to a one to one ratio. I might be wrong about that but my understanding is that that 98% efficiency is ONLY reached with ONE particular gear. Other gears are less efficient.

With the driveshaft system shown upthread I can't but wonder how it'd wear and how soon the interface of the gears would get sloppy. Plus as was also mentioned upthread, with that driveshaft it might not be too easy to do an emergency wheel swap.

Cheers

I'm not sure about the gear ratios but I'm sure that the 98%
efficiency is achieved with the sprockets perfectly aligned so a
derailer system is only that efficient in, possible, two gears where
the cassette sprocket is perfectly aligned with the chain ring.

As for wear, I assume that "ceramic" is used to make the gears which
is pretty hard stuff. I read somewhere that ceramic bearings are 5 -
20 times harder than conventional bearings.

As for ease of wheel swap see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgo-yEaXDzA
It appears as though that a skewer sort of retainer is used.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 18:02:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/10/2019 2:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:33:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of things look quite efficient without a load on it.

IIRC the 98% efficiency of a derailleur system is reached ONLY when the gear is equal to a one to one ratio. I might be wrong about that but my understanding is that that 98% efficiency is ONLY reached with ONE particular gear. Other gears are less efficient.

With the driveshaft system shown upthread I can't but wonder how it'd wear and how soon the interface of the gears would get sloppy. Plus as was also mentioned upthread, with that driveshaft it might not be too easy to do an emergency wheel swap.

Cheers


Yes, there's that.
For bevel gears the stated '90~95%' is per set and you need
two so likely closer to 80%.

According to the Ceramicspeed site they tested the DrivEN system and
it is 99% efficient. The entire system.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/10/2019 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 18:02:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/10/2019 2:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:33:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of things look quite efficient without a load on it.

IIRC the 98% efficiency of a derailleur system is reached ONLY when the gear is equal to a one to one ratio. I might be wrong about that but my understanding is that that 98% efficiency is ONLY reached with ONE particular gear. Other gears are less efficient.

With the driveshaft system shown upthread I can't but wonder how it'd wear and how soon the interface of the gears would get sloppy. Plus as was also mentioned upthread, with that driveshaft it might not be too easy to do an emergency wheel swap.

Cheers


Yes, there's that.
For bevel gears the stated '90~95%' is per set and you need
two so likely closer to 80%.

According to the Ceramicspeed site they tested the DrivEN system and
it is 99% efficient. The entire system.

With raised eyebrow I remain unconvinced of that.

Open crown/spur gear set (as opposed to wet gears in a rigid
case) 99%? Hell, every race car would use them if that were
true.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2019 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 18:02:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/10/2019 2:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:33:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those
exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But
again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way
it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and
people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts
because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and
electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of
things look quite efficient without a load on it.

IIRC the 98% efficiency of a derailleur system is reached ONLY when
the gear is equal to a one to one ratio. I might be wrong about that but my
understanding is that that 98% efficiency is ONLY reached with ONE
particular gear. Other gears are less efficient.

With the driveshaft system shown upthread I can't but wonder how it'd
wear and how soon the interface of the gears would get sloppy. Plus as
was also mentioned upthread, with that driveshaft it might not be too
easy to do an emergency wheel swap.

Cheers


Yes, there's that.
For bevel gears the stated '90~95%' is per set and you need
two so likely closer to 80%.

According to the Ceramicspeed site they tested the DrivEN system and
it is 99% efficient. The entire system.

With raised eyebrow I remain unconvinced of that.

Open crown/spur gear set (as opposed to wet gears in a rigid
case) 99%? Hell, every race car would use them if that were
true.



It’s not quite a regular crown/spur set. The spur gear “teeth� appear to be
made from ceramic ball bearing assemblies, so there’s minimal friction as
the “teeth� slide across each other.

On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:34:16 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/10/2019 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 18:02:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/10/2019 2:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:33:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 10:01:07 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:11:17 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 5:49:03 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM

In the narration he mentions that a 24 speed gear set, or even more,
would be perfectly feasible. No wires, no cables, either.
--

Cheers,

John B.

I can just imaging what road grit when it rains will do to those exposed bearings and interface. Can we say RAPID wear?

Cheers

What exposed bearings? They are sealed ceramic bearings. But again, the frame must be custom built for it. So there's no way it would ever make it on the market.

Custom Frame? You mean like a MTB with fore and aft suspension? That
will never make it on the market?
--
cheers,

John B.

There is a very strong purpose for full suspension in racing and people tend to copy racers. But ravers won't use drive shafts because they are inherently very lossy. Hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting are there just to increase the cost of a bike.

But the article about this "NEW" shaft drive system says that it is 1%
more efficient than a chain drive. You don't think that "racers" will
want a carbon fiber bike that will likely be as light as legal and 1%
more efficient?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Any testing they did must have been unloaded. You can make a lot of things look quite efficient without a load on it.

IIRC the 98% efficiency of a derailleur system is reached ONLY when the gear is equal to a one to one ratio. I might be wrong about that but my understanding is that that 98% efficiency is ONLY reached with ONE particular gear. Other gears are less efficient.

With the driveshaft system shown upthread I can't but wonder how it'd wear and how soon the interface of the gears would get sloppy. Plus as was also mentioned upthread, with that driveshaft it might not be too easy to do an emergency wheel swap.

Cheers


Yes, there's that.
For bevel gears the stated '90~95%' is per set and you need
two so likely closer to 80%.

According to the Ceramicspeed site they tested the DrivEN system and
it is 99% efficient. The entire system.

With raised eyebrow I remain unconvinced of that.

Open crown/spur gear set (as opposed to wet gears in a rigid
case) 99%? Hell, every race car would use them if that were
true.

But they aren't "crown/spur gears" or "crown/pinion gears" or " wet
gears in a rigid case" in the conventional sense. If they were than I
would agree with you. In fact I'm not sure that they should even be
termed "gears".

Motion pictures at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgo-yEaXDzA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFAQ6CzNm7s
Words and pictures at
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/driven

--
cheers,

John B.

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2019 12:31 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 3:31:41 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 7/6/19 11:07 pm, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:38:22 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 04:03:01 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 06:26:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

Why did shaft drives fail?
Solp and flex were one. Road crap is another. Hard to maintain.
I can not wait to see that drive train after a days mtn biking on wet,
rainy days.

Complexities? And so we have hydraulic brake systems as opposed to
simply mechanical brakes, electronic shifters as opposed to simple
mechanical systems, and so on.

Yep, all extra points of unreliability.

The real relaibility test is, can I ride it home when stuff fails.

You mean like when the chain breaks or a wheel "tacos"?

I've used fencing wire to fix chains.
It was the first and last time I did a long tour on a new brand of chain.
In any case, you can scooter it. BTDT.

And I've flattened a taco wheel enough to get it rotating. No brakes
though, except shoe leather.


In addition, if you carry a multi tool with a chain breaker in your
saddle bag as I have, you can fix a broken chain in minutes.

--
JS

True but shaft drives made properly do not break.

So they are like chains then?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ouch!