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Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 19th 19, 02:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 1,336
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

John B. Slocomb writes:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 12:46:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/18/2019 3:11 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 11:57:10 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
OK, I just went out and weighed my road bikes again. Just like I would walk out the door with.

Basso Loto - this is the final year of production and used Basso
Tubing Concepts tubes instead of Columbus tubes. 22.12 lbs

Time VX - 28 mm tires and aluminum BB lugs and multi-shaped carbon tubes. - 21.9 lbs

Colnago CLX 3.0 - carbon wheels and everything else possible. 20.17 lbs.

Now it seems pretty plain that I could reduce the weight of the
Basso to very close to that of the Colnago. But to do so would
mean I would have to put carbon wheels on it. And maybe a carbon
fork which would put me in a position of having a hybrid
carbon/steel bike which seems to kill the idea of having a steel
bike in the first place.

The real question is does this weight really make a difference?

A 22 lb bike and a 190 lb lard-assed rider makes that 2 lb
difference only 0.01% difference in weight


190+22.12=212.12
190+20.17=210.17
Difference = 1.95 lbs
1.95 divided by 212.12 = .009193
Converting to percentage, which means moving the decimal point two
places to the right, equals 0.92% if rounding to two decimal points
for percentages. A little less than 1%. Yet, you write "0.01%".
I will not ask what grades you received in basic math classes
during your elementary school education. But it might help your so
called argument if you used correct math skills.

Now, does 1% make any difference? In the 2019 Giro d'Italia the
final stage was a 17 kilometer time trial. The winning time was 22
minutes, 7 seconds. Second place was 22 minutes, 11 seconds. A
difference of 4 seconds. 4 seconds is 0.30% of the winning time.
Less than one third of one percent. Or three tenths of one
percent.

The winner of the Giro d'Italia 2019 won in 90 hours, 1 minute, 47
seconds total time. Second place was 1 minute, 5 seconds behind.
1 minute, 5 seconds, is 0.02% of the total winning time. Much,
much, much less than 1%. Its one fiftieth of one percent.

Does 1% weight difference matter? Maybe that 1% weight difference
is equal to one fiftieth of one percent difference in time. Maybe.


When comparing weight (or aero) difference percentages, I don't think
it's realistic to transform them into racing elapsed time percentages,
for at least two reasons.

First, the speed vs. power curve is very non-linear, especially at
racing speeds. It's a cubic function. So producing (say) 2% more power
(or saving 2% of one's power by not having to move a heavier bike) will
not increase one's speed by 2%. The speed benefit will be less.

Second, in any race but a time trial, there is a _lot_ of stuff going on
that will mask the tiny differences we're talking about. Case in point:
I mentioned a club ride last week where I drafted a strong rider and so
finished five minutes or more ahead of everyone other than that strong
rider. The drafting was the benefit. It completely masked the fact that
I was on a 26 pound touring bike with added bags and fenders, 5 cogs in
back, toe clips, friction shifters, etc.

In a road race, there's drafting, choosing lines through corners,
guessing when to jump and when to let go, getting boxed in or not
getting boxed in, avoiding patches of bad pavement, getting enough sleep
the night before, and much much more. I think the effect of any design
feature of the bike is almost always lost in the noise.

And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.


True, but how else would one measure the effect of a lighter weight
bicycle?


Easier to carry upstairs.
Ads
  #22  
Old June 19th 19, 02:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,378
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 5:37:49 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 6:42:42 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Sipped
What is the deal with handlebar bags these days... Snipped

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!

-- Jay Beattie.


Hey, I like my handlebar bag. I have it mounted on a cutdown handlebar fitted to a threadless stem that is then mounted to my seatpost.

I can vcarry my repair kit, spare tubes, snacks, spare bottles of water or Powerade and my rain jacket in that bag.

I don't have anyone who can come and get me I need a ride thus I like to be totally self reliant on the road or trails.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...57662865565180

Cheers


But that's functionally an over-grown seat pack. The guys I see often have retro handlebar bags, like the cotton-duck darlings sold by Jan Heine. And the handlebar bags are often on very high-end racing-ish bikes. I'm also amazed because the handlebar bag-thing occurred over night. I felt like I missed the memo.

I ride short trails and know nothing about epic Joergian trail riding with panniers filled with water and a heart lung machine. On the road, I've never used a handlebar bag except on tour, and then I usually used a front rack and low-riders. Not that handlebar bags are bad, but low-riders are better, IMO. Anyway, for normal weekend riding, I just stuff things in my jersey pockets and carry a modest seatpack and clown pump.

I've gotten a ride home from my wife once -- and that's when I broke a chain commuting. I've scootered home/pedaled one-legged almost 15 miles when I broke a crank -- and lesser miles when I broke the other five or six cranks, two pedals, handlebars, seat post, a chain (on tour -- fixed by shortening) etc., etc. I almost broke a Cannondale frame in half and rode it home -- and a steel frame that broke at the seattube/BB. Now that I think about it, it takes a lot to entirely kill a bike. Even a taco'd wheel can be beaten round enough to get home usually.

Full disclosu I also called my wife when I cartwheeled over my son and broke my hand and banged myself up, but I still rode five miles to the pick-up spot. I've got a dandy plate in my hand now. Shifting SRAM Red with a fractured right hand is no fun. That's why everyone should have Di2.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #23  
Old June 19th 19, 03:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 10,971
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 5:37:49 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 6:42:42 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Sipped
What is the deal with handlebar bags these days... Snipped

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!

-- Jay Beattie.


Hey, I like my handlebar bag. I have it mounted on a cutdown handlebar fitted to a threadless stem that is then mounted to my seatpost.

I can vcarry my repair kit, spare tubes, snacks, spare bottles of water or Powerade and my rain jacket in that bag.

I don't have anyone who can come and get me I need a ride thus I like to be totally self reliant on the road or trails.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...57662865565180

Cheers


But that's functionally an over-grown seat pack. The guys I see often have retro handlebar bags, like the cotton-duck darlings sold by Jan Heine. And the handlebar bags are often on very high-end racing-ish bikes. I'm also amazed because the handlebar bag-thing occurred over night. I felt like I missed the memo.

I ride short trails and know nothing about epic Joergian trail riding with panniers filled with water and a heart lung machine. On the road, I've never used a handlebar bag except on tour, and then I usually used a front rack and low-riders. Not that handlebar bags are bad, but low-riders are better, IMO. Anyway, for normal weekend riding, I just stuff things in my jersey pockets and carry a modest seatpack and clown pump.

I've gotten a ride home from my wife once -- and that's when I broke a chain commuting. I've scootered home/pedaled one-legged almost 15 miles when I broke a crank -- and lesser miles when I broke the other five or six cranks, two pedals, handlebars, seat post, a chain (on tour -- fixed by shortening) etc., etc. I almost broke a Cannondale frame in half and rode it home -- and a steel frame that broke at the seattube/BB. Now that I think about it, it takes a lot to entirely kill a bike. Even a taco'd wheel can be beaten round enough to get home usually.

Full disclosu I also called my wife when I cartwheeled over my son and broke my hand and banged myself up, but I still rode five miles to the pick-up spot. I've got a dandy plate in my hand now. Shifting SRAM Red with a fractured right hand is no fun. That's why everyone should have Di2.

-- Jay Beattie.


Ouch that's horrible - double tap shifter with a hand
fracture. I did mine on[1] my fixie, tucked it inside my
coat[2] and rode on with only minimal discomfort.

[1] actually when it broke when I was just off the bike.
[2] as The Little Corporal if he had a fixie instead of a
horse.
https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/u..._1_of_5__z.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #24  
Old June 19th 19, 03:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,914
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 5:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.


For a long time I enjoyed informally competing against friends, seeing
who would be first to the top of a hill, or to the city limit, or
whatever. I did some low-level time trials. I did rides of 130 to 200
miles. I used to time trial home from work, trying to get a low elapsed
time. All that can be fun.

But if a friend had consistently beaten me to the city limit by a few
yards, then I bought an expensive super-aero bike and beat him next
time, it wouldn't feel like much of a triumph to me.

Not that I would expect it to work even that dramatically. I remember
many years ago when my best friend bought his high end Giant carbon
fiber bike "to beat Frank up the hills," as he said. He expressed a lot
of disappointment after our next long, hilly ride.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #25  
Old June 19th 19, 03:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,914
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 6:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.



What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!


OK, I just did an inventory for you. This is from the touring bike,
which is what I most often ride on solo recreational rides.

First, the bike's parked now, and there are things in the bag that are
just stored there now but will be used or worn when riding. That's the
cycling cap, riding gloves and eyeglass mirror. There are a couple
safety pins, because I ride pretty frequently in regular clothes and
have to pin my pants cuffs to keep them out of the chain.

There are tools: an old Mafac tool pouch with a few tiny tools, some
Mafac some not. There's also a new multitool, so I could probably lose a
couple grams of the old tools. There's a tube, a patch kit and tire
irons. A tiny bottle from eyedrops that contains maybe 2 ml of oil, and
a spare shifter cable. A mini tube of hand cleaner and some paper
towels. A micro-flashlight in case I flat at night. A lightweight cable
lock.

A few snack items: a small bag of raisins, one envelope of sports gel, a
few restaurant packs of honey, and a few of mustard because I've had
soem trouble with cramps. Oh, and a tea bag in foil because I've come
across restaurants that don't carry real tea.

There's a pen, and a couple of lawyer Steve Magas's cards with
abbreviated versions of our state's bike laws. Those are in case I get
stopped by an ignorant cop.

Here are the quirkier items: A fabric case from my small binoculars,
because it's the perfect size to hold my cell phone, wallet and keys as
I ride, and I can easily grab it to take into a restaurant or store.
There's a tiny compass and thermometer, zipper-pull size. There's a
monocular that I use for wildlife and at least once or twice, for
navigation while on tour - as in "Which road is that up ahead?". And
there's a take-apart pennywhistle. It's one of the instruments I play.

There's a can of Halt clipped to the outside of the bag. All that comes
to 2.5 pounds.

The bag is pretty large, and it's my own design and build. So is the one
on my utility/commuting/shopping bike. But there's one on every bike I
own, with the others being pretty standard commercial ones.

I find these bags very handy. They carry stuff home from stores, they
stash jackets and sweaters and tights and arm warmers when things warm
up or may cool down. They have carried library books, take-out
sandwiches, rain clothing, maps, guidebooks, cameras, found tools and more.

I still remember when a good cycling friend showed up (in his car) to
show off his brand new custom framed bike. As we were getting ready to
take a ride together, he said "Can you carry my jacket for me?"

I guess that's what guys without bags do? Besides greatly restricting
the practical use of their bikes, that is.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #26  
Old June 19th 19, 03:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,679
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 10:22:24 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2019 5:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.


For a long time I enjoyed informally competing against friends, seeing
who would be first to the top of a hill, or to the city limit, or
whatever. I did some low-level time trials. I did rides of 130 to 200
miles. I used to time trial home from work, trying to get a low elapsed
time. All that can be fun.

But if a friend had consistently beaten me to the city limit by a few
yards, then I bought an expensive super-aero bike and beat him next
time, it wouldn't feel like much of a triumph to me.

Not that I would expect it to work even that dramatically. I remember
many years ago when my best friend bought his high end Giant carbon
fiber bike "to beat Frank up the hills," as he said. He expressed a lot
of disappointment after our next long, hilly ride.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Did e tell you that you should be entering some of the Grand Tours too?

Cheers
  #27  
Old June 19th 19, 03:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,914
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 6:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 12:46:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
And if someone's not racing? To me, finishing a "training" ride or a
recreational ride ten seconds earlier is of no value whatsoever. In
fact, if my fenders or handlebar bag make me finish five minutes later,
they're still a net benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski


That's you Frank. However to a lot of riders who enjoy riding fast and pushing their limits a ten seconds difference is quite rewarding.



What is the deal with handlebar bags these days -- and beards or goatees on anyone over 55? Its like a Portland meme. I hope Frank doesn't have a beard. It would be too much.


Of course I have a beard! What sort of insanity would expect a man to
take a sharp instrument to his face at some ungodly hour of the morning?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #28  
Old June 19th 19, 04:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,679
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 10:55:18 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
I still remember when a good cycling friend showed up (in his car) to
show off his brand new custom framed bike. As we were getting ready to
take a ride together, he said "Can you carry my jacket for me?"

I guess that's what guys without bags do? Besides greatly restricting
the practical use of their bikes, that is.


--
- Frank Krygowski


A lot of bicyclists would simply fold/roll their cycling jacket up and stick it in a jersey pocket or strap it under their saddle or saddle bag.

You have very interesting bicycling companions. VBEG

Cheers
  #29  
Old June 19th 19, 04:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,914
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On 6/18/2019 1:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

For ordinary riding? No, most tiny improvements make no noticeable
difference. Even though we all know the near-magic power of red paint.


What is a "tiny improvement"? The frame on my Emonda probably weighs less than the Columbus steel forks off my last custom racing bike. Those things were suitable for clubbing baby harp seals or home defense. Weight and stiffness do matter when climbing. If we're talking about aero bits, that's harder call -- except that dopes on aero bars riding in packs can result in a massive worsening of your riding experience. Wearing aero shoe covers may keep your feet warmer on chilly mornings, which might make you faster. It all adds up.


Stiffness probably does not make a detectable difference, unless the
frame is so flexible that things are scraping. Remember the discussion
we had about the bike magazine's test of modern stiff CF frames vs.
older, heavier steel frames? The test riders gushed about how the
stiffness improved their climbing, but the math showed the speed
difference was precisely what would be predicted by the weight difference.

Weight matters when climbing. If getting to the top of the hill before
your buddy is really, really important, a lighter bike will help by
whatever the percent difference in total bike+rider weight. If a 160
pound rider changes his 20 pound bike for an 18 pound bike, he should be
about 1% faster up a steep hill. Whoopee!


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #30  
Old June 19th 19, 04:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,679
Default Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 9:26:02 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 5:37:49 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 at 6:42:42 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Sipped
What is the deal with handlebar bags these days... Snipped

And what goes in a handlebar bag for the usual out and back ride on a sunny day? Slide rule? Shower slippers? I'm going to stop one of those bearded guys and ask him to show me what's in his handlebar bag. It's probably and after-ride kilt or a knit cap. Enquiring minds want to know!

-- Jay Beattie.


Hey, I like my handlebar bag. I have it mounted on a cutdown handlebar fitted to a threadless stem that is then mounted to my seatpost.

I can vcarry my repair kit, spare tubes, snacks, spare bottles of water or Powerade and my rain jacket in that bag.

I don't have anyone who can come and get me I need a ride thus I like to be totally self reliant on the road or trails.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...57662865565180

Cheers


But that's functionally an over-grown seat pack. The guys I see often have retro handlebar bags, like the cotton-duck darlings sold by Jan Heine. And the handlebar bags are often on very high-end racing-ish bikes. I'm also amazed because the handlebar bag-thing occurred over night. I felt like I missed the memo.

I ride short trails and know nothing about epic Joergian trail riding with panniers filled with water and a heart lung machine. On the road, I've never used a handlebar bag except on tour, and then I usually used a front rack and low-riders. Not that handlebar bags are bad, but low-riders are better, IMO. Anyway, for normal weekend riding, I just stuff things in my jersey pockets and carry a modest seatpack and clown pump.

I've gotten a ride home from my wife once -- and that's when I broke a chain commuting. I've scootered home/pedaled one-legged almost 15 miles when I broke a crank -- and lesser miles when I broke the other five or six cranks, two pedals, handlebars, seat post, a chain (on tour -- fixed by shortening) etc., etc. I almost broke a Cannondale frame in half and rode it home -- and a steel frame that broke at the seattube/BB. Now that I think about it, it takes a lot to entirely kill a bike. Even a taco'd wheel can be beaten round enough to get home usually.

Full disclosu I also called my wife when I cartwheeled over my son and broke my hand and banged myself up, but I still rode five miles to the pick-up spot. I've got a dandy plate in my hand now. Shifting SRAM Red with a fractured right hand is no fun. That's why everyone should have Di2.

-- Jay Beattie.


A handlebar mounted bag is a tad bit easier to get into whilst riding than are panniers on low rider racks. BTW, I like low-rider racks and panniers on the front whenever there's a lot of hill climbing. I find it easier to climb with more of the weight up front and low than in panniers on the rear rack. A handlebar bag is also a great place to stash a camera. I often take pictures even on my out and back rides if I see something interesting.

I can't carry much weight in jersey pockets because if I do my lower back soon gets quite sore. That's the main reason I moved my handlebar bag to behind the saddle. Besides, doing that let me mount an extra bottle cage on the handlebar. Mine is mount in the center.

Cheers
 




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