Steel is Real and Carbon is Lighter

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 8:40:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2019 4:24 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2019 3:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 3:55:05 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

Today's ride:
https://localfreshies.com/wp-content..._2014_V1.jpgÂ* Mt.
Bachelor.Â* The winds were howling at the top, and I almost had a
Froome moment coming down -- and I was on modest C35s and not super
deep-dish sails.

-- Jay Beattie.

This was why I wanted to make the point that these cheapo deep aero
clinchers do not run off on me - they are no more sensitive to side
gusts than some of those old Campy Proton wheels which were flat
sections.

I assumption is that it is the spoke tension but it may be the
directional stability of the Victoria Corsa G+ tires. I've used these
clinchers on the Aero frame of the Colnago and the very non-aero frame
of the Pinarello Stelvio and they seem to react that same way.

OK, my guess on crosswind stability and aero wheels:

With an old fashioned, unstreamlined sort of box section rim, the cross
section of the forward part of wheel is a simple bluff body. Air hits it
and goes turbulent no matter what the angle of attack - that is, no
matter if there's zero wind, or if there's a sidewind causing the air to
come at the rim at an angle. So the front and rear portions of the wheel
get roughly the same amount and direction of force.

The more a tire+rim looks like a teardrop or airfoil, the less that is
true. The airfoil shape will certainly give less drag if it's pointed
directly into the relative wind (that is, if there is no sidewind). But
for many values of sidewind, the relative wind is at an angle of attack
that causes a significant sideways "lifting" force on the front part of
the wheel. [Rather, it would be a lifting force if the airfoil were
horizontal, as an airplane wing.] On the bike, this is a lateral force
that tries to steer the front of the wheel away from the wind. The
backside of the wheel sees the same angle of attack, but its airfoil is
oriented backward so it's much less efficient at generating side force.
The sideways force there is much less, so the front and rear side forces
are much less balanced than for a normal wheel.

The more streamlined the wheel+tire, the better this works. So I'm not
surprised aero wheels would be sensitive to side winds.

I don't think loose spokes have anything significant to do with this,
assuming the spokes don't go dead slack. In fact, I don't think tighter
spokes increase the rigidity of the wheel. The stiffness (or modulus of
elasticity) of a spoke with 50 kgf tension is the same as a spoke with
100 kgf tension. They're both within the elastic range of the material,
where strain is proportional to stress, so the same force will cause the
same deflection.

That's what I think. We can discuss.

Yesterday's club ride was at a pretty relaxed pace, but one guy had
brand new and extremely deep section aero rims. Sorry, I didn't catch
the brand.

But as we passed him, I asked "How are those rims in crosswinds?" He
said "Terrible. They're actually scary, really scary."

I have a pair of Shimano C35s and chose that depth because (according to reports) it produced a stiffer wheel than the C24. It is not terribly light or aero, but it is a really good rolling wheel that is not too much of a sail. I think it is more affected by cross-winds than a typical 23-24mm rim-height rim, but not much. It also has fewer spokes. I'm certainly not scared to ride them in any conditions, although they live on a dry weather bike. They also have an aluminum brake track.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 11:40:08 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2019 4:24 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/22/2019 3:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 21, 2019 at 3:55:05 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

Today's ride:
https://localfreshies.com/wp-content..._2014_V1.jpgÂ* Mt.
Bachelor.Â* The winds were howling at the top, and I almost had a
Froome moment coming down -- and I was on modest C35s and not super
deep-dish sails.

-- Jay Beattie.

This was why I wanted to make the point that these cheapo deep aero
clinchers do not run off on me - they are no more sensitive to side
gusts than some of those old Campy Proton wheels which were flat
sections.

I assumption is that it is the spoke tension but it may be the
directional stability of the Victoria Corsa G+ tires. I've used these
clinchers on the Aero frame of the Colnago and the very non-aero frame
of the Pinarello Stelvio and they seem to react that same way.

OK, my guess on crosswind stability and aero wheels:

With an old fashioned, unstreamlined sort of box section rim, the cross
section of the forward part of wheel is a simple bluff body. Air hits it
and goes turbulent no matter what the angle of attack - that is, no
matter if there's zero wind, or if there's a sidewind causing the air to
come at the rim at an angle. So the front and rear portions of the wheel
get roughly the same amount and direction of force.

The more a tire+rim looks like a teardrop or airfoil, the less that is
true. The airfoil shape will certainly give less drag if it's pointed
directly into the relative wind (that is, if there is no sidewind). But
for many values of sidewind, the relative wind is at an angle of attack
that causes a significant sideways "lifting" force on the front part of
the wheel. [Rather, it would be a lifting force if the airfoil were
horizontal, as an airplane wing.] On the bike, this is a lateral force
that tries to steer the front of the wheel away from the wind. The
backside of the wheel sees the same angle of attack, but its airfoil is
oriented backward so it's much less efficient at generating side force.
The sideways force there is much less, so the front and rear side forces
are much less balanced than for a normal wheel.

The more streamlined the wheel+tire, the better this works. So I'm not
surprised aero wheels would be sensitive to side winds.

I don't think loose spokes have anything significant to do with this,
assuming the spokes don't go dead slack. In fact, I don't think tighter
spokes increase the rigidity of the wheel. The stiffness (or modulus of
elasticity) of a spoke with 50 kgf tension is the same as a spoke with
100 kgf tension. They're both within the elastic range of the material,
where strain is proportional to stress, so the same force will cause the
same deflection.

That's what I think. We can discuss.

Yesterday's club ride was at a pretty relaxed pace, but one guy had
brand new and extremely deep section aero rims. Sorry, I didn't catch
the brand.

But as we passed him, I asked "How are those rims in crosswinds?" He
said "Terrible. They're actually scary, really scary."

--
- Frank Krygowski

I've had a set of off-brand taiwanese (novatec) 80mm rims on my commuter for three years now. Not because they're fast/light, but because they're some of the toughest wheels I've ever ridden at a reasonable weight. They're still as round/true as new. But yes, on windy days they tend to push me around.

On 6/26/2019 5:53 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

snip

at least you're entertaining.

Perhaps he was mildly entertaining at first, but that kind of idiocy
gets old pretty fast, and it's why God invented Usenet filters.

sms wrote:
It's a failure of our education system that these people were not taught
critical thinking skills. Calling them idiots is not helpful. Trying to
educate them is what's necessary.

Non-idiots can pass through the same education system and exhibit critical thinking skills, as well as acceptable moral alignment.

On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 12:23:54 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:34:36 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

What experts?
Jerome R Corsi, for example who one of your sites refers to as an
"expert" has no educational background in document appraisal and no
listed experience as ever having been employed in apprising documents.
In fact his greatest claim to fame seems to be that in 1995 he helped
launch a mutual fund to invest in formerly communist Poland after the
fall of the Soviet Union, which eventually lost $1.2 million, much of
it from a group of about 20 Minnesota investors.

In Tomworld, that makes Corsi a successful businessman, in the same way tommy considers trump to be a "self-made man" (yes, that's a quote from tom himself).

On 7/4/2019 12:14 AM, wrote:
Please explain why you birther people are still fixated on your nonsense. Are you like the flat earth people who just like to keep dumb things going even though there is pretty obvious proof the earth is a sphere.

Patience, Russell, patience! The extreme right just needs way more time
than normal people to accept reality.

As an example, in these days of 2019, the extreme right is hardly ever
claiming that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction ready to
attack any and all. It's taken about 15 years for that to sink in.
(Granted, Tom still isn't on board, but Tom will always be Tom.)

It's been said that reality is biased against the right wing.

But they do come around - or at least, get distracted by other nasty
fairy tales. By my calculations, we'll stop hearing from "birthers"
around 2030. Just give them time!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 8:25:48 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/4/2019 12:14 AM, wrote:
Please explain why you birther people are still fixated on your nonsense. Are you like the flat earth people who just like to keep dumb things going even though there is pretty obvious proof the earth is a sphere.

Patience, Russell, patience! The extreme right just needs way more time
than normal people to accept reality.

As an example, in these days of 2019, the extreme right is hardly ever
claiming that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction ready to
attack any and all. It's taken about 15 years for that to sink in.
(Granted, Tom still isn't on board, but Tom will always be Tom.)

It's been said that reality is biased against the right wing.

But they do come around - or at least, get distracted by other nasty
fairy tales. By my calculations, we'll stop hearing from "birthers"
around 2030. Just give them time!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us all about how there weren't any WND. That must have been WHY William Jefferson Clinton bombed the hell out of Iraq which started the war. That caused 9/11 by a group of TALIBAN. Not Saudi's - terrorist extremists.

I happen to be the person that programmed the poison gas detectors which were used to detect the presence of those (non-existent) WMD. We found several 100,000 lbs of them as cannisters and artillery shells and they were destroyed ON SITE as is protocol. Or perhaps you're so F-ing ignorant that you believe that they should have brought them back here and showed them to you personally?

Because they didn't train the disposal troops correctly they weren't aware that you could be poisoned upwind because of explosive dispersal. The extremely small amount were not immediately detectable by the teams. Because the military didn't want to admit that they didn't know how to handle this amount of poison gas they didn't make it public and eventually the soldiers had to sue the government to gain proper treatment.

While SOB's like you were crying NO WMD the UN Troops discovered another 10,000 lbs of artillery shells.

All it would have taken is ONE terrorist to carry a cannister of Sarin into Times Sq. on a nice warm and pleasant lunch time and release it and that would have made 9/11 look like penny ante poker.

But some ignorant ass who doesn't know a thing about what he is talking about STILL maintains that there were no WMD. Is that because you never caught a clue in your entire life? Or maybe because if you google it they put the actual results of Page 85 because truth isn't part of the leftist agenda?

Tell us Krygowski - are you one of those that still denies what Hitler did to the Poles? And the Polish Jews in particular? Or maybe you can pretend that the Germans weren't murdering common Poles as well?

On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:09:56 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 8:25:48 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/4/2019 12:14 AM, wrote:
Please explain why you birther people are still fixated on your nonsense. Are you like the flat earth people who just like to keep dumb things going even though there is pretty obvious proof the earth is a sphere.

Patience, Russell, patience! The extreme right just needs way more time
than normal people to accept reality.

As an example, in these days of 2019, the extreme right is hardly ever
claiming that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction ready to
attack any and all. It's taken about 15 years for that to sink in.
(Granted, Tom still isn't on board, but Tom will always be Tom.)

It's been said that reality is biased against the right wing.

But they do come around - or at least, get distracted by other nasty
fairy tales. By my calculations, we'll stop hearing from "birthers"
around 2030. Just give them time!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us all about how there weren't any WND. That must have been WHY William Jefferson Clinton bombed the hell out of Iraq which started the war. That caused 9/11 by a group of TALIBAN. Not Saudi's - terrorist extremists.

I happen to be the person that programmed the poison gas detectors which were used to detect the presence of those (non-existent) WMD. We found several 100,000 lbs of them as cannisters and artillery shells and they were destroyed ON SITE as is protocol. Or perhaps you're so F-ing ignorant that you believe that they should have brought them back here and showed them to you personally?

Which "we" used? If you were involved in this search for WMD's please
advise who you were working for and how and when did you go to Iraq
for this project?

(and provide a little proof, please)

Because they didn't train the disposal troops correctly they weren't aware that you could be poisoned upwind because of explosive dispersal. The extremely small amount were not immediately detectable by the teams. Because the military didn't want to admit that they didn't know how to handle this amount of poison gas they didn't make it public and eventually the soldiers had to sue the government to gain proper treatment.

While SOB's like you were crying NO WMD the UN Troops discovered another 10,000 lbs of artillery shells.

All it would have taken is ONE terrorist to carry a cannister of Sarin into Times Sq. on a nice warm and pleasant lunch time and release it and that would have made 9/11 look like penny ante poker.

But some ignorant ass who doesn't know a thing about what he is talking about STILL maintains that there were no WMD. Is that because you never caught a clue in your entire life? Or maybe because if you google it they put the actual results of Page 85 because truth isn't part of the leftist agenda?

Tell us Krygowski - are you one of those that still denies what Hitler did to the Poles? And the Polish Jews in particular? Or maybe you can pretend that the Germans weren't murdering common Poles as well?

Tell is oh great sage, what in the world do the Polish Jews have to do
with Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq?
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 7/4/2019 6:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 8:25:48 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/4/2019 12:14 AM, wrote:
Please explain why you birther people are still fixated on your nonsense. Are you like the flat earth people who just like to keep dumb things going even though there is pretty obvious proof the earth is a sphere.

Patience, Russell, patience! The extreme right just needs way more time
than normal people to accept reality.

As an example, in these days of 2019, the extreme right is hardly ever
claiming that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction ready to
attack any and all. It's taken about 15 years for that to sink in.
(Granted, Tom still isn't on board, but Tom will always be Tom.)

It's been said that reality is biased against the right wing.

But they do come around - or at least, get distracted by other nasty
fairy tales. By my calculations, we'll stop hearing from "birthers"
around 2030. Just give them time!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us all about how there weren't any WND. That must have been WHY William Jefferson Clinton bombed the hell out of Iraq which started the war. That caused 9/11 by a group of TALIBAN. Not Saudi's - terrorist extremists.

I happen to be the person that programmed the poison gas detectors which were used to detect the presence of those (non-existent) WMD. We found several 100,000 lbs of them as cannisters and artillery shells and they were destroyed ON SITE as is protocol. Or perhaps you're so F-ing ignorant that you believe that they should have brought them back here and showed them to you personally?

Because they didn't train the disposal troops correctly they weren't aware that you could be poisoned upwind because of explosive dispersal. The extremely small amount were not immediately detectable by the teams. Because the military didn't want to admit that they didn't know how to handle this amount of poison gas they didn't make it public and eventually the soldiers had to sue the government to gain proper treatment.

While SOB's like you were crying NO WMD the UN Troops discovered another 10,000 lbs of artillery shells.

All it would have taken is ONE terrorist to carry a cannister of Sarin into Times Sq. on a nice warm and pleasant lunch time and release it and that would have made 9/11 look like penny ante poker.

But some ignorant ass who doesn't know a thing about what he is talking about STILL maintains that there were no WMD. Is that because you never caught a clue in your entire life? Or maybe because if you google it they put the actual results of Page 85 because truth isn't part of the leftist agenda?

Tell us Krygowski - are you one of those that still denies what Hitler did to the Poles? And the Polish Jews in particular? Or maybe you can pretend that the Germans weren't murdering common Poles as well?



I thought the 'No Iraqi WMD' trope would die after the
Canadian government propaganda office confirmed it:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/uraniu...ssion-1.742303

But even though the notorious right wing CNN confirmed:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/

The lie goes half round the world before truth can get its
boots on.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/4/2019 7:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 4, 2019 at 8:25:48 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/4/2019 12:14 AM, wrote:
Please explain why you birther people are still fixated on your nonsense. Are you like the flat earth people who just like to keep dumb things going even though there is pretty obvious proof the earth is a sphere.

Patience, Russell, patience! The extreme right just needs way more time
than normal people to accept reality.

As an example, in these days of 2019, the extreme right is hardly ever
claiming that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction ready to
attack any and all. It's taken about 15 years for that to sink in.
(Granted, Tom still isn't on board, but Tom will always be Tom.)

It's been said that reality is biased against the right wing.

But they do come around - or at least, get distracted by other nasty
fairy tales. By my calculations, we'll stop hearing from "birthers"
around 2030. Just give them time!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tell us all about how there weren't any WND...

Oh, good grief. Do you believe in chemtrails, too?

Here's a nice menu of other conspiracy theories for you, Tom.
https://www.wired.com/story/wired-gu...racy-theories/

Have fun believing them all!

--
- Frank Krygowski