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Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 5th 19, 06:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,123
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.

You cannot push the clincher with tight spokes from side to side and the steering is spot on. Since the set of Chinese Carbon 50 mm clinchers is only about $220 a set they are a real good deal. Also the latest blue brake pads while wearing faster than the pads for aluminum wheels wear a lot less than the older grey "basalt" pads. And they do not appear to wear the braking surfaces on the carbon rims much.

As I pointed out before, the latest super-light aluminum wheelsets wear quite rapidly and you always have the chance of a rim having a sidewall break off. Or perhaps you might say, brake off.
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  #2  
Old July 5th 19, 08:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,884
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On 7/5/2019 1:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.


Here's a super competent and rather famous bicycling engineer said on
this point:

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel
built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does
not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally
slack."

He actually did tests. You know, measurements? Using repeatable machine
shop equipment like dial indicators and the like?

That's at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

This is very easy to understand based on the fundamental physics -
specifically, the applied engineering branch of physics known as
Strength of Materials or Theory of Elasticity.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #3  
Old July 5th 19, 09:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,123
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 12:12:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 1:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.


Here's a super competent and rather famous bicycling engineer said on
this point:

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel
built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does
not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally
slack."

He actually did tests. You know, measurements? Using repeatable machine
shop equipment like dial indicators and the like?

That's at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

This is very easy to understand based on the fundamental physics -
specifically, the applied engineering branch of physics known as
Strength of Materials or Theory of Elasticity.

--
- Frank Krygowski


It never surprises me when you refer to someone else for knowledge you do not have yourself. If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.
  #4  
Old July 6th 19, 12:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,884
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On 7/5/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 12:12:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 1:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.


Here's a super competent and rather famous bicycling engineer said on
this point:

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel
built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does
not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally
slack."

He actually did tests. You know, measurements? Using repeatable machine
shop equipment like dial indicators and the like?

That's at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

This is very easy to understand based on the fundamental physics -
specifically, the applied engineering branch of physics known as
Strength of Materials or Theory of Elasticity.

--
- Frank Krygowski


It never surprises me when you refer to someone else for knowledge you do not have yourself.


First, Tom, I bother to correct only a small percentage of your online
flubs and fictions.

But I mentioned this about a week ago because I _do_ have the knowledge
myself. I did get it from "someone else," back when I was getting my
engineering degrees.

But to a mechanical or civil engineer, the principle is elementary. Have
you never seen and understood a steel's stress-strain curve? Have you
not noticed that it's linear until your extremely close to the yield
point? Do you not see the implication regarding stiffness?

No, you probably don't see. So I decided to find you a web link that was
more specific, hoping that you'd have a better chance at understanding it.

So given those extremely specific test results, do you now understand?

If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.


Sorry, that bit of blather was too vague to make sense.

But about "any sort of spoke": If you want a stiffer wheel, use thicker
spokes. Or use more spokes. Or read _The Bicycle Wheel_ which contains
actual (gasp!) engineering instead of folklore. Try to understand it. I
can help.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #5  
Old July 6th 19, 12:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,123
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:24:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 12:12:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 1:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.

Here's a super competent and rather famous bicycling engineer said on
this point:

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel
built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does
not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally
slack."

He actually did tests. You know, measurements? Using repeatable machine
shop equipment like dial indicators and the like?

That's at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

This is very easy to understand based on the fundamental physics -
specifically, the applied engineering branch of physics known as
Strength of Materials or Theory of Elasticity.

--
- Frank Krygowski


It never surprises me when you refer to someone else for knowledge you do not have yourself.


First, Tom, I bother to correct only a small percentage of your online
flubs and fictions.

But I mentioned this about a week ago because I _do_ have the knowledge
myself. I did get it from "someone else," back when I was getting my
engineering degrees.

But to a mechanical or civil engineer, the principle is elementary. Have
you never seen and understood a steel's stress-strain curve? Have you
not noticed that it's linear until your extremely close to the yield
point? Do you not see the implication regarding stiffness?

No, you probably don't see. So I decided to find you a web link that was
more specific, hoping that you'd have a better chance at understanding it..

So given those extremely specific test results, do you now understand?

If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.


Sorry, that bit of blather was too vague to make sense.

But about "any sort of spoke": If you want a stiffer wheel, use thicker
spokes. Or use more spokes. Or read _The Bicycle Wheel_ which contains
actual (gasp!) engineering instead of folklore. Try to understand it. I
can help.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I said that these are carbon fiber aero rims. Now explain to me how the stress curve of the steel spokes has any effect on that. It must be your engineering degree speaking again.

When I say that I can push the rim over until it touches the brake pad on the rims with the looser spokes and I cannot do that with the one's with a lot of tension on them and that doesn't ring at the very least a warning bell in your supposed brain I have to wonder just what sort of engineer you are.
  #6  
Old July 6th 19, 01:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,884
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On 7/5/2019 7:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:24:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 12:12:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 1:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.

Here's a super competent and rather famous bicycling engineer said on
this point:

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel
built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does
not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally
slack."

He actually did tests. You know, measurements? Using repeatable machine
shop equipment like dial indicators and the like?

That's at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

This is very easy to understand based on the fundamental physics -
specifically, the applied engineering branch of physics known as
Strength of Materials or Theory of Elasticity.

--
- Frank Krygowski

It never surprises me when you refer to someone else for knowledge you do not have yourself.


First, Tom, I bother to correct only a small percentage of your online
flubs and fictions.

But I mentioned this about a week ago because I _do_ have the knowledge
myself. I did get it from "someone else," back when I was getting my
engineering degrees.

But to a mechanical or civil engineer, the principle is elementary. Have
you never seen and understood a steel's stress-strain curve? Have you
not noticed that it's linear until your extremely close to the yield
point? Do you not see the implication regarding stiffness?

No, you probably don't see. So I decided to find you a web link that was
more specific, hoping that you'd have a better chance at understanding it.

So given those extremely specific test results, do you now understand?

If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.


Sorry, that bit of blather was too vague to make sense.

But about "any sort of spoke": If you want a stiffer wheel, use thicker
spokes. Or use more spokes. Or read _The Bicycle Wheel_ which contains
actual (gasp!) engineering instead of folklore. Try to understand it. I
can help.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I said that these are carbon fiber aero rims. Now explain to me how the stress curve of the steel spokes has any effect on that.


Damn, you're making even less sense than usual. That's quite a trick!

YOU were the one who brought up the idea of the spoke tension affecting
the wheel's stiffness. Apparently, you dimly thought _something_ related
to spoke tension or steel properties had some effect on that.

You didn't remark on the article and data I linked. I don't know if you
now understand it or not. If you do, I don't know why you'd imagine that
the physics changes if the rim is carbon fiber aero.

Perhaps you might contact Damon Rinard and set him straight; or at least
force him to re-do his tests with your choice of rim. But somehow, I
don't think your attempts at logic would impress him.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #7  
Old July 6th 19, 01:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,028
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On 6/7/19 9:24 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:


If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not
have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.


Sorry, that bit of blather was too vague to make sense.

But about "any sort of spoke": If you want a stiffer wheel, use thicker
spokes. Or use more spokes. Or read _The Bicycle Wheel_ which contains
actual (gasp!) engineering instead of folklore. Try to understand it. I
can help.



Maybe the spokes are so loose in Tom's loosely tensioned wheel, as to go
slack when he pushes the rim sideways?

They probably rattle in use too.

--
JS
  #8  
Old July 6th 19, 02:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,943
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On 7/5/2019 6:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:24:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 12:12:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 1:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.

Here's a super competent and rather famous bicycling engineer said on
this point:

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel
built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does
not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally
slack."

He actually did tests. You know, measurements? Using repeatable machine
shop equipment like dial indicators and the like?

That's at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

This is very easy to understand based on the fundamental physics -
specifically, the applied engineering branch of physics known as
Strength of Materials or Theory of Elasticity.

--
- Frank Krygowski

It never surprises me when you refer to someone else for knowledge you do not have yourself.


First, Tom, I bother to correct only a small percentage of your online
flubs and fictions.

But I mentioned this about a week ago because I _do_ have the knowledge
myself. I did get it from "someone else," back when I was getting my
engineering degrees.

But to a mechanical or civil engineer, the principle is elementary. Have
you never seen and understood a steel's stress-strain curve? Have you
not noticed that it's linear until your extremely close to the yield
point? Do you not see the implication regarding stiffness?

No, you probably don't see. So I decided to find you a web link that was
more specific, hoping that you'd have a better chance at understanding it.

So given those extremely specific test results, do you now understand?

If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.


Sorry, that bit of blather was too vague to make sense.

But about "any sort of spoke": If you want a stiffer wheel, use thicker
spokes. Or use more spokes. Or read _The Bicycle Wheel_ which contains
actual (gasp!) engineering instead of folklore. Try to understand it. I
can help.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I said that these are carbon fiber aero rims. Now explain to me how the stress curve of the steel spokes has any effect on that. It must be your engineering degree speaking again.

When I say that I can push the rim over until it touches the brake pad on the rims with the looser spokes and I cannot do that with the one's with a lot of tension on them and that doesn't ring at the very least a warning bell in your supposed brain I have to wonder just what sort of engineer you are.


What are the two wheels' tension readings?

Does the rim manufacturer have a published spoke tension
spec? Do they meet it?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #9  
Old July 7th 19, 12:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,123
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 5:42:41 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 6/7/19 9:24 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:


If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not
have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.


Sorry, that bit of blather was too vague to make sense.

But about "any sort of spoke": If you want a stiffer wheel, use thicker
spokes. Or use more spokes. Or read _The Bicycle Wheel_ which contains
actual (gasp!) engineering instead of folklore. Try to understand it. I
can help.



Maybe the spokes are so loose in Tom's loosely tensioned wheel, as to go
slack when he pushes the rim sideways?

They probably rattle in use too.


James, they don't appear to be so loose as to go slack. What it seems to be is that the spoke nipple beds appear to be slightly flexible. The clincher wheels with very tight spokes compress the spoke nipple beds to their limit and so there's no problem. The 55 mm rims are using the 50 mm spoke set and so they cannot be tensioned enough even with the spokes tightened to their limit.

These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


  #10  
Old July 7th 19, 12:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,123
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 6:38:18 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/5/2019 6:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:24:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 12:12:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/5/2019 1:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Someone here commented on my posting that the latest cheap Chinese deep rim carbon fiber tubeless wheels have somewhat slack spokes and that causes the wheels to be very sensitive to side gusts of wind.

I have tested the tight spoke clincher 50 mm rims against the slack spoke 55 mm rims and the difference in steering is dramatic. The looser spokes in the wheels makes the wheels so unpredictable in side winds that I have to slow up a great deal.

In calm or constant winds the slack spoke wheels handle just the same as the clinchers with tight spokes. Moreover, you cannot feel more effect from the side gusts on the tight spoked clincher rim than you can on a normal pair of aluminum Campy wheels.

So anyone that doesn't believe being able to manually push a wheel over until it touches the brake pads on either side, with the looser spokes, doesn't effect steering ought to try it before commenting on it.

Here's a super competent and rather famous bicycling engineer said on
this point:

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel
built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does
not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally
slack."

He actually did tests. You know, measurements? Using repeatable machine
shop equipment like dial indicators and the like?

That's at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

This is very easy to understand based on the fundamental physics -
specifically, the applied engineering branch of physics known as
Strength of Materials or Theory of Elasticity.

--
- Frank Krygowski

It never surprises me when you refer to someone else for knowledge you do not have yourself.

First, Tom, I bother to correct only a small percentage of your online
flubs and fictions.

But I mentioned this about a week ago because I _do_ have the knowledge
myself. I did get it from "someone else," back when I was getting my
engineering degrees.

But to a mechanical or civil engineer, the principle is elementary. Have
you never seen and understood a steel's stress-strain curve? Have you
not noticed that it's linear until your extremely close to the yield
point? Do you not see the implication regarding stiffness?

No, you probably don't see. So I decided to find you a web link that was
more specific, hoping that you'd have a better chance at understanding it.

So given those extremely specific test results, do you now understand?

If this is the case, why not have any sort of spoke installed and not have the stiffest steel possible? Duhhhhhh.

Sorry, that bit of blather was too vague to make sense.

But about "any sort of spoke": If you want a stiffer wheel, use thicker
spokes. Or use more spokes. Or read _The Bicycle Wheel_ which contains
actual (gasp!) engineering instead of folklore. Try to understand it. I
can help.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I said that these are carbon fiber aero rims. Now explain to me how the stress curve of the steel spokes has any effect on that. It must be your engineering degree speaking again.

When I say that I can push the rim over until it touches the brake pad on the rims with the looser spokes and I cannot do that with the one's with a lot of tension on them and that doesn't ring at the very least a warning bell in your supposed brain I have to wonder just what sort of engineer you are.


What are the two wheels' tension readings?

Does the rim manufacturer have a published spoke tension
spec? Do they meet it?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


These are wheelsets from China. They don't publish anything. I have no idea where my tensiometer or for that matter many of my specialized tools such as headset removers etc. got to when I was semi-conscious. I do remember giving away my sail making tools so perhaps I gave them away. There were a couple of start up bike shops at that time. I believe that my brother made me give all my guns to the local gun shop because he was afraid that I'd blow my brains out. And when I first came back to life as nothing more than skin and bones the thought did cross my mind. But that disappeared rapidly with weight gain.
 




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