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Carbon Frame Reliability



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 5th 19, 10:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 624
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset..

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.

Global Cycling Network has performed a series of tests of carbon handlebars vs aluminum. What they discovered should come as no surprise to anyone - carbon has four or five times the fatigue resistance of aluminum.

So under loads that are at or under their designed strength they have a much longer life than aluminum.

However, at loads above their designed strength carbon fiber will break whereas aluminum tends to bend instead of break.

What this means is that a properly designed and manufactured carbon fiber bike should have four or more times the lifespan of an aluminum frameset designed to the same limits.

There is only one thing wrong with this theory - carbon fiber construction has a number of problems - they can be build more easily with flaws than can aluminum or steel bikes and since everyone is going for the lightest possible bikes these days, the design of carbon bikes and their strength isn't known closely enough to be as reliable as necessary.

So if you're Joe Modern and want a super-light carbon frame be honest with yourself and realize that your bike could break and it could occur at the worst possible times. If you're a Pro racer it is your business to be competitive at the highest levels. If you are not perhaps another material may be more appropriate.
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  #2  
Old July 6th 19, 02:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 10,629
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On 7/5/2019 4:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.

Global Cycling Network has performed a series of tests of carbon handlebars vs aluminum. What they discovered should come as no surprise to anyone - carbon has four or five times the fatigue resistance of aluminum.

So under loads that are at or under their designed strength they have a much longer life than aluminum.

However, at loads above their designed strength carbon fiber will break whereas aluminum tends to bend instead of break.

What this means is that a properly designed and manufactured carbon fiber bike should have four or more times the lifespan of an aluminum frameset designed to the same limits.

There is only one thing wrong with this theory - carbon fiber construction has a number of problems - they can be build more easily with flaws than can aluminum or steel bikes and since everyone is going for the lightest possible bikes these days, the design of carbon bikes and their strength isn't known closely enough to be as reliable as necessary.

So if you're Joe Modern and want a super-light carbon frame be honest with yourself and realize that your bike could break and it could occur at the worst possible times. If you're a Pro racer it is your business to be competitive at the highest levels. If you are not perhaps another material may be more appropriate.


We almost never see modern aluminum race bars bent, they
just snap.
Back when they were thicker and less tempered they bent, but
that's over for race quality bars now.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #3  
Old July 6th 19, 03:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,489
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On 7/5/2019 9:33 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of
the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike
asked them about their reliability the company official that was
showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a
carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race
because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure.
This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So
the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.

Global Cycling Network has performed a series of tests of carbon
handlebars vs aluminum. What they discovered should come as no
surprise to anyone - carbon has four or five times the fatigue
resistance of aluminum.

So under loads that are at or under their designed strength they have
a much longer life than aluminum.

However, at loads above their designed strength carbon fiber will
break whereas aluminum tends to bend instead of break.

What this means is that a properly designed and manufactured carbon
fiber bike should have four or more times the lifespan of an aluminum
frameset designed to the same limits.

There is only one thing wrong with this theory - carbon fiber
construction has a number of problems - they can be build more easily
with flaws than can aluminum or steel bikes and since everyone is
going for the lightest possible bikes these days, the design of carbon
bikes and their strength isn't known closely enough to be as reliable
as necessary.

So if you're Joe Modern and want a super-light carbon frame be honest
with yourself and realize that your bike could break and it could
occur at the worst possible times. If you're a Pro racer it is your
business to be competitive at the highest levels. If you are not
perhaps another material may be more appropriate.


We almost never see modern aluminum race bars bent, they just snap.
Back when they were thicker and less tempered they bent, but that's over
for race quality bars now.


It seems it's almost a law of nature that the higher the strength, the
lower the ductility. Often, that means the less warning before fracture.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #4  
Old July 6th 19, 08:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,517
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.
  #5  
Old July 6th 19, 09:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.


Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about. So how long have you been making bicycles and of what materials?
  #6  
Old July 6th 19, 11:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 6:33:37 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/5/2019 4:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
My friend just returned from Italy on a tour up the entire length of the east coast.

He visited the factory that built his and his wife's custom steel frames.

They also build carbon fiber frames and sponsor a Pro team. When Mike asked them about their reliability the company official that was showing them around said that he would not recommend ANYONE buying a carbon fiber frameset.

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.

Global Cycling Network has performed a series of tests of carbon handlebars vs aluminum. What they discovered should come as no surprise to anyone - carbon has four or five times the fatigue resistance of aluminum.

So under loads that are at or under their designed strength they have a much longer life than aluminum.

However, at loads above their designed strength carbon fiber will break whereas aluminum tends to bend instead of break.

What this means is that a properly designed and manufactured carbon fiber bike should have four or more times the lifespan of an aluminum frameset designed to the same limits.

There is only one thing wrong with this theory - carbon fiber construction has a number of problems - they can be build more easily with flaws than can aluminum or steel bikes and since everyone is going for the lightest possible bikes these days, the design of carbon bikes and their strength isn't known closely enough to be as reliable as necessary.

So if you're Joe Modern and want a super-light carbon frame be honest with yourself and realize that your bike could break and it could occur at the worst possible times. If you're a Pro racer it is your business to be competitive at the highest levels. If you are not perhaps another material may be more appropriate.


We almost never see modern aluminum race bars bent, they
just snap.
Back when they were thicker and less tempered they bent, but
that's over for race quality bars now.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I went back and watched a couple of the carbon vs aluminum bars. He showed a fairly large number of carbon bars with voids and failures ranging from visible to total failures.

Then he began talking about aluminum bars. He said that for a while they were making ultra-light aluminum bars weighing in at 200 grams. He said that they didn't even bother with inspecting the bars but replaced them yearly because they would have catastrophic failures. He then said that now they make the bars 250 grams. I assumed from his statements that they were a hell of a lot more reliable because of the 25% additional weight.

After what I saw in those video's it sort of gives me the willies about any ultralight bars.

No problem since the Chinese CF bars are somewhat heavier than the expensive ones. Another video compared the American made Enve carbon rims with the Chinese. The Enve had what I'd consider a slightly better shape but it also had some visible voids. They did not appear to be in areas that are important but a crash may disable the bike because of that.

So in regard to your posting - perhaps the bars you've been seeing fail were the ultralights and not the newer. The failure of all of his stack of carbon bars certainly couldn't give you confidence in carrying on after a crash.
  #7  
Old July 6th 19, 11:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 763
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 13:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.


Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about. So how long have you been making bicycles and of what materials?


You seem to be saying that something that what someone told you that
somebody else said must the truth, and all of the truth, but in
reality the real question is not what someone says that someone else
says but what is happening in real life. Do T de F teams actually
change frames, for every team member, every race?

Perhaps they do but to date I haven't read any reports by bicycle
reporters to that effect and I would think that it might be of great
interest to the bicycling world that this was happening.

But perhaps all the bicycling reporters are being bribed to not report
such truths by a conspiracy of all the carbon frame makers who pay
them large sums of money to ignore the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #8  
Old July 7th 19, 12:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 3:26:03 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 13:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.


Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about. So how long have you been making bicycles and of what materials?


You seem to be saying that something that what someone told you that
somebody else said must the truth, and all of the truth, but in
reality the real question is not what someone says that someone else
says but what is happening in real life. Do T de F teams actually
change frames, for every team member, every race?

Perhaps they do but to date I haven't read any reports by bicycle
reporters to that effect and I would think that it might be of great
interest to the bicycling world that this was happening.

But perhaps all the bicycling reporters are being bribed to not report
such truths by a conspiracy of all the carbon frame makers who pay
them large sums of money to ignore the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.


You have just lost the ability to ever pretend that you were an engineer. If you haven't watched the actual tests of aluminum and carbon fiber parts on YouTube you've shown exactly what a dope you are.
  #9  
Old July 7th 19, 12:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,975
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On 7/7/19 6:50 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each
race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a
failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles
since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some
weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So
after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped
and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as
being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have
budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team
would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to
rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an
extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds
like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half
the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot
stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop
sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every
year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at
least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies
close or within sight of the truth.


Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems
to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know
what they're talking about. So how long have you been making bicycles
and of what materials?


Most of them have two bikes. A frame may be discarded after a serious
crash or at the end of a season. Generally not before. Certainly not
after every race.

--
JS
  #10  
Old July 7th 19, 01:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 4:56:54 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 7/7/19 6:50 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each
race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a
failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles
since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some
weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So
after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped
and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as
being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have
budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team
would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to
rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an
extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds
like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half
the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot
stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop
sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every
year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at
least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies
close or within sight of the truth.


Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems
to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know
what they're talking about. So how long have you been making bicycles
and of what materials?


Most of them have two bikes. A frame may be discarded after a serious
crash or at the end of a season. Generally not before. Certainly not
after every race.

--
JS



The actual sponsor of a Pro Team said that is what they do. Where are you getting your information from? My pal, a retired NCIS lead agent talked directly to the company that sponsors a pro team. I have every confidence that he would ask the correct questions and report the correct answers. After all, that was his business for 30 years.

Now I did take that to mean that after every pro race and not every Grand Tour stage. But after what I watched today in the Tour de France it seemed to me like they would throw most of those frames that crashed away instantly.. Even getting a flat now they change bikes.
 




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