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  #21  
Old July 7th 19, 05:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,105
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 7:00:37 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 9:47:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

One project I assigned annually was to research a variety of mechanical
and thermal properties of many different materials - various metal
alloys, a selection of plastics, a couple species of wood, etc.

No, YouTube would not have qualified as a source.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Another web source that is not usually accepted by professors is Wikipedia. It's astounding how many people read Wikipedia and watch You Tube and then pass themselves off as experts - sometimes even on You Tube.

Cheers


There are problems that people who have never been real-life engineers do not understand. That is that some materials, most especially resin based materials are extremely easy to not manufacture properly. Voids and sharp edges in areas that cannot be seen can lead to failures that Frank's "numbers" are completely unaware of.

When someone on YouTube has bisected a carbon handlebar and shows large areas of voids on the most expensive American made components that might give you reasons to think rather differently about the difference between engineering numbers and actual end product.


You don't need to be an engineer to question your story about disposable CF frames. The numbers don't add up. A factory would have to produce a staggering amount of product to outfit a pro-team for a single season. Each rider has maybe four to six bikes (road/TT/climbing and spares), and if you threw those out after every race or even stage race, that would over a hundred a year -- for every rider. The factory would go broke just supporting a pro-team. And now bicycle sponsors are paying money rather than just providing product, so that factory would be knocking out hundreds of bikes and paying some huge amount of money to sponsor the team. No Italian CF frame manufacturer that also makes one-off steel frames for your friends could do it. And if so, what is the name of the factory? We could easily fact check.

-- Jay Beattie.
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  #22  
Old July 7th 19, 07:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,283
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 11:38:33 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 4:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.

Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about.


We're not doubting what "the factory" said. We're doubting what _you_
said. Since you're the one reporting that conversation with "the
factory" we have no way of knowing what "the factory" actually said.

To put it as charitably as possible: You tend to forget things.


--
- Frank Krygowski


More charitably - you've never worked as a real engineer. You've never been anything more than a school teacher. So yammer away as if you had some sort of knowledge that you do not.


Sorry, Tom. You apparently forgot that I _did_ work as an engineer. I don't
think I could have gotten my PE license without that.

BTW, to get the license, I also had to have the appropriate college degree,
which meant I also had to have a high school degree.

You wouldn't have met even that simple, ordinary qualification.

I'm continually amazed that you demean others and brag about your supposed
brilliance; but almost simultaneously you describe your total lack of documented
qualifications, you repeatedly refer to your mental problems, and you
repeatedly rage about the terrible location that you're forced to live because
of your financial status.

- Frank Krygowski

- Frank Krygowski
  #23  
Old July 7th 19, 07:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 10,625
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On 7/7/2019 10:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:07:47 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 11:19:03 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 19:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 9:47:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

One project I assigned annually was to research a variety of mechanical
and thermal properties of many different materials - various metal
alloys, a selection of plastics, a couple species of wood, etc.

No, YouTube would not have qualified as a source.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Another web source that is not usually accepted by professors is Wikipedia. It's astounding how many people read Wikipedia and watch You Tube and then pass themselves off as experts - sometimes even on You Tube.

Cheers

I do like Wikipedia as it covers an amazing number of subjects and I
do find that the majority of the more technical entries are factual.

On the other hand it is open to editing by just about everyone, which
sometimes does contribute to its accuracy, but I do find that some of
the more general entries can be somewhat slanted, or told from only
one viewpoint.

But I would say that anyone that relies on a single source for almost
any data is going to be disappointed.

--
cheers,

John B.


I remember when we were told to use at least THREE independent sources and to make sure that none of the three sources were just a reworded source from one of the others.

Cheers


The studies of measles and Lyme's Disease are the only full fledged studies available. How do you get three sources?


It's Lyme (no apostrophe-S),a place name not a man's last
name. There's an extensive report in this week's Science
News over several pages. Reads like a zombie horror story.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #24  
Old July 7th 19, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,975
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On 7/7/19 10:06 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 4:56:54 PM UTC-7, James wrote:



Most of them have two bikes. A frame may be discarded after a
serious crash or at the end of a season. Generally not before.
Certainly not after every race.



The actual sponsor of a Pro Team said that is what they do. Where are
you getting your information from?


An actual pro.

--
JS
  #25  
Old July 7th 19, 10:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 621
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 11:38:33 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 4:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.

Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about.

We're not doubting what "the factory" said. We're doubting what _you_
said. Since you're the one reporting that conversation with "the
factory" we have no way of knowing what "the factory" actually said.

To put it as charitably as possible: You tend to forget things.


--
- Frank Krygowski


More charitably - you've never worked as a real engineer. You've never been anything more than a school teacher. So yammer away as if you had some sort of knowledge that you do not.


Sorry, Tom. You apparently forgot that I _did_ work as an engineer. I don't
think I could have gotten my PE license without that.

BTW, to get the license, I also had to have the appropriate college degree,
which meant I also had to have a high school degree.

You wouldn't have met even that simple, ordinary qualification.

I'm continually amazed that you demean others and brag about your supposed
brilliance; but almost simultaneously you describe your total lack of documented
qualifications, you repeatedly refer to your mental problems, and you
repeatedly rage about the terrible location that you're forced to live because
of your financial status.

- Frank Krygowski

- Frank Krygowski


Rather than working as a PE, I worked designing and fabricating and programming embedded systems so that you can go down to your doctor an get blood tests that actually cost less that that piece of crap you call a PE.

Because of my work they were able to identify HIV and connect it to AIDS. But of course your PE did much more than that.

Because of my work there are half a dozen cancer detection and treatment instruments on the market.

I have a couple of buss communications boards on the International Space station and I didn't need one of your fancy high school degrees though apparently from my work my old high school awarded me one in absentia.

Because of my poor education the Gas and Water and Electric companies don't have to read your meters anymore. Chemists and others can identify complex compounds using either Gas or Liquid Chromatographs.

But if there's one thing that is really useful, it is a PE while you're teaching third grade.
  #26  
Old July 7th 19, 11:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 621
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 2:14:50 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 7/7/19 10:06 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 4:56:54 PM UTC-7, James wrote:



Most of them have two bikes. A frame may be discarded after a
serious crash or at the end of a season. Generally not before.
Certainly not after every race.



The actual sponsor of a Pro Team said that is what they do. Where are
you getting your information from?


An actual pro.

--
JS


James, so your "actual pro" knows more about what happens with the dimensions they take from him than the factory does? As I said, the man who sent this to me is that man who saved my life. The man who spent 30 years as a detective for the Federal Government. He was good enough to catch quite a few foreign spies. That isn't a rumor because I read it in the NCIS house organ praising his work. Do you suppose he doesn't know what questions to ask?

Looking at videos that show the mechanics trucks what you can discover is that each rider has two bikes minimum. Plus TT bikes. What's more, there is an entire line of bare frames why would you suppose that is? Even on GCN they mentioned that the cameras purposely pan away when the frames break up. One of the mechanics said that they often carry off these crashes in a wheel bag.

The idea that you can have ultra-light and ultra-reliable is rather opposite ideas don't you think?
  #27  
Old July 7th 19, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 08:36:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:18:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 16:34:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 3:26:03 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 13:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.

Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about. So how long have you been making bicycles and of what materials?

You seem to be saying that something that what someone told you that
somebody else said must the truth, and all of the truth, but in
reality the real question is not what someone says that someone else
says but what is happening in real life. Do T de F teams actually
change frames, for every team member, every race?

Perhaps they do but to date I haven't read any reports by bicycle
reporters to that effect and I would think that it might be of great
interest to the bicycling world that this was happening.

But perhaps all the bicycling reporters are being bribed to not report
such truths by a conspiracy of all the carbon frame makers who pay
them large sums of money to ignore the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.

You have just lost the ability to ever pretend that you were an engineer. If you haven't watched the actual tests of aluminum and carbon fiber parts on YouTube you've shown exactly what a dope you are.


Nope I have never watched youtube to obtain any engineering data of
any nature. I far prefer to read the documents put out by the various
firms that manufacture, or test, the material. I recently posted some
data on the strength of carbon fiber versus metals and I certainly
didn't watch youtube to get that data. I went to the group that
actually did the testing.

I cringe to even imagine the results of someone making a proposal to
built something like the Bay Bridge and getting up in a meeting and
saying, "Yes, we got all our material strength values from youtube".

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

You demonstrate once again how far removed you really are from
reality.
--
cheers,

John B.


Exactly who do you think you're kidding? You have read diddly squat. You certainly show that you've never actually been an engineer. My suspicion is that you were exactly like my uncle and were a supervisor on mechanical constructions.


And how do you know that I've not read "diddle squat"? Are you
sneaking into my house at night to inventory my books and papers?

As for not being an engineer, well I can only assume that the company
I worked for was happy with my experience and capability. After all I
was largely responsible for the company winning a contract that
started in the hundreds of thousand dollar monthly billing range and
rose to a million a month billings.And just think. that was only one
of the contracts that we had, albeit the largest.

As for reading diddly squat? Well, if I am continually correcting your
wild eyed statements with facts it would seem to me that you must be
reading less, or perhaps your vaunted Youtube movies aren't telling
you the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #28  
Old July 7th 19, 11:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 08:38:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 4:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.

Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about.


We're not doubting what "the factory" said. We're doubting what _you_
said. Since you're the one reporting that conversation with "the
factory" we have no way of knowing what "the factory" actually said.

To put it as charitably as possible: You tend to forget things.


--
- Frank Krygowski


More charitably - you've never worked as a real engineer. You've never been anything more than a school teacher. So yammer away as if you had some sort of knowledge that you do not.


Tom, do you even know what a P.E. is? never mind what the required
qualifications are, do you just know what the initials mean?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #29  
Old July 8th 19, 12:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 11:12:39 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 11:38:33 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 4:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 4:33:54 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

He said that pro teams replace their framesets generally each race because they cannot take the chance injuring a rider with a failure. This is a famous Italian marque that has made bicycles since 1957. So the opinion of the factory should bear some weight.


Nonsense. There are 5 to 8 riders on each team at every race. So after every single rice/race, the bikes would need to be stripped and rebuilt with a new frame. We think of pro racing teams as being bottomless pits of money. But they are not. They have budgets and expenses and try to turn a profit. Every pro team would need to hire 2-3-4 extra mechanics permanently just to rebuild and strip frame after every single ride. This would be an extra half million dollars added to the budget. I know that sounds like a piddle amount to rich folks. But it adds up quickly. Half the pro bike teams would be out of business because they cannot stand that kind of expense. And pro bike sponsors would also stop sponsoring because giving away thousands of frames for free every year would not be worth the cost. I encourage you trumpians to at least add some believability to your lies. At least make your lies close or within sight of the truth.

Why don't you tell us all how long you've been making bicycles? Seems to me that only a moron will tell us that the factory doesn't know what they're talking about.

We're not doubting what "the factory" said. We're doubting what _you_
said. Since you're the one reporting that conversation with "the
factory" we have no way of knowing what "the factory" actually said.

To put it as charitably as possible: You tend to forget things.


--
- Frank Krygowski

More charitably - you've never worked as a real engineer. You've never been anything more than a school teacher. So yammer away as if you had some sort of knowledge that you do not.


Sorry, Tom. You apparently forgot that I _did_ work as an engineer. I don't
think I could have gotten my PE license without that.

BTW, to get the license, I also had to have the appropriate college degree,
which meant I also had to have a high school degree.

You wouldn't have met even that simple, ordinary qualification.

I'm continually amazed that you demean others and brag about your supposed
brilliance; but almost simultaneously you describe your total lack of documented
qualifications, you repeatedly refer to your mental problems, and you
repeatedly rage about the terrible location that you're forced to live because
of your financial status.

- Frank Krygowski

- Frank Krygowski


Rather than working as a PE, I worked designing and fabricating and programming embedded systems so that you can go down to your doctor an get blood tests that actually cost less that that piece of crap you call a PE.

Well Tom, based on many, many of your other posts you the claims you
are making are simply unbelievably. Perhaps you could provide some
proof that you are such a qualified individual? After you have already
told us about some company that has refused to hire you simply because
you objected to their use of a descriptive phrase.

Because of my work they were able to identify HIV and connect it to AIDS. But of course your PE did much more than that.


Given that you seem to be claiming a considerable amount of
responsible for identifying HIV and AIDs I'm amazed that you appear to
have received no credit for this fact. One would thought that from
your description you would have at least be nominated for a Nobel
prize in medicine.

Or perhaps all your claims to fame are just that. Claims. After all
you have lovingly recounted how your loss of memory was so great that
you can remember what happened to a number of items... but you CAN
remember how wonderful and important you are. Which makes it rather
strange that with all your brilliance you still can't find a job.


Because of my work there are half a dozen cancer detection and treatment instruments on the market.

I have a couple of buss communications boards on the International Space station and I didn't need one of your fancy high school degrees though apparently from my work my old high school awarded me one in absentia.

Because of my poor education the Gas and Water and Electric companies don't have to read your meters anymore. Chemists and others can identify complex compounds using either Gas or Liquid Chromatographs.

But if there's one thing that is really useful, it is a PE while you're teaching third grade.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #30  
Old July 8th 19, 12:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 763
Default Carbon Frame Reliability

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 08:46:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 4:07:47 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 11:19:03 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 19:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 9:47:32 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2019 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:

We might ask Frank whether he ever suggest that his engineering
students got their data from youtube. Or perhaps what his reaction
would have been if anyone had submitted a paper with a footnote saying
that "the values above were obtained from watching youtube".

One project I assigned annually was to research a variety of mechanical
and thermal properties of many different materials - various metal
alloys, a selection of plastics, a couple species of wood, etc.

No, YouTube would not have qualified as a source.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Another web source that is not usually accepted by professors is Wikipedia. It's astounding how many people read Wikipedia and watch You Tube and then pass themselves off as experts - sometimes even on You Tube.

Cheers

I do like Wikipedia as it covers an amazing number of subjects and I
do find that the majority of the more technical entries are factual.

On the other hand it is open to editing by just about everyone, which
sometimes does contribute to its accuracy, but I do find that some of
the more general entries can be somewhat slanted, or told from only
one viewpoint.

But I would say that anyone that relies on a single source for almost
any data is going to be disappointed.

--
cheers,

John B.


I remember when we were told to use at least THREE independent sources and to make sure that none of the three sources were just a reworded source from one of the others.

Cheers


The studies of measles and Lyme's Disease are the only full fledged studies available. How do you get three sources?


Well, lets see.

The first detailed description of what is now known as Lyme disease
appeared in the writings of John Walker after a visit to the Island of
Jura (Deer Island) off the west coast of Scotland in 1764. ( Summerton
N (1995). "Lyme disease in the eighteenth century)

In fact the Wikki list some 272 references to studies of Lyme disease
from about 1764 to the present.
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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