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  #1  
Old July 10th 19, 09:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 624
Default Electronic Shifting

This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

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  #2  
Old July 11th 19, 10:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 9,244
Default Electronic Shifting

On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 9:19:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


And even commuters didn't want fully automatic bicycle shifting, as Shimano proved with the "Smover" version of the DI2 gruppo, which offered not only excellent fully automatic shifting according to several programmes but also electronic active suspension. I have it on a Trek designed by their Benelux division, and it's a fabulous bike, but I don't ride it any more because the Shimano Nexus 8-speed box wasn't quite up to my hills, or indeed a bottom bracket mounted central motor.

Andre Jute
A product in search of a problem to solve?
  #3  
Old July 11th 19, 01:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 451
Default Electronic Shifting

On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou
  #4  
Old July 11th 19, 01:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 9,244
Default Electronic Shifting

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 1:41:42 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou


Yeah. After my favourable experience with full auto cycling, which commuters and utility cyclists apparently didn't want though it was given a fair go by leading bicycle manufacturers, including Gaselle and Koga Miyata, I was surprised when roadies took up the cut-down version. But if it has the advantages you list, there should be a market among racers and serious riders, not just the tech-fashionistas (not a knock at anyone -- I'm one myself). But, if I were in that roadie market, I'd be disappointed that after several years the price hasn't come down through economies of scale.

Andre Jute
Old Smoothie
  #5  
Old July 12th 19, 05:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Evans
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Posts: 27
Default Electronic Shifting

On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.

  #6  
Old July 12th 19, 05:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 349
Default Electronic Shifting

On 12/07/2019 12:13 p.m., Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again -
is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight
advantage to the electronic stuff.


Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.


The people I know that have this like it but I haven't heard anyone say
it's a game changer. Well one guy had a crash that mucked up his
derailleur and he was telling me that it was able to adjust itself
enough for him to get home.

My concern was the battery maintenance, given the battery fail mode but
I haven't heard of anyone with issues. Charges don't seem to be
required very often.

I agree that this will probably become standard at some point. One of
my friends that have this only have it because it came on a bike she
bought. And this was an entry level Tarmac. Not that expensive of a bike.
  #7  
Old July 12th 19, 06:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,283
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 12:39:13 PM UTC-4, duane wrote:
On 12/07/2019 12:13 p.m., Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again -
is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight
advantage to the electronic stuff.


Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.


The people I know that have this like it but I haven't heard anyone say
it's a game changer. Well one guy had a crash that mucked up his
derailleur and he was telling me that it was able to adjust itself
enough for him to get home.

My concern was the battery maintenance, given the battery fail mode but
I haven't heard of anyone with issues. Charges don't seem to be
required very often.

I agree that this will probably become standard at some point. One of
my friends that have this only have it because it came on a bike she
bought. And this was an entry level Tarmac. Not that expensive of a bike.


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.

I can't do that with my cell phone, my TV or even my TV remote, my CD player,
etc. They're reliable, but when they're not, they usually need replacement. I
wouldn't want that to happen to my shifters when I was 30 miles from home.

- Frank Krygowski
  #8  
Old July 12th 19, 06:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,107
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:39:13 AM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 12/07/2019 12:13 p.m., Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again -
is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight
advantage to the electronic stuff.


Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.


The people I know that have this like it but I haven't heard anyone say
it's a game changer. Well one guy had a crash that mucked up his
derailleur and he was telling me that it was able to adjust itself
enough for him to get home.

My concern was the battery maintenance, given the battery fail mode but
I haven't heard of anyone with issues. Charges don't seem to be
required very often.

I agree that this will probably become standard at some point. One of
my friends that have this only have it because it came on a bike she
bought. And this was an entry level Tarmac. Not that expensive of a bike.


It is not a game-changer compared to modern mechanical systems, although it makes shifting under a load easier and may provide a benefit for TT riders who can put a shift button at the end of an aero bar.

I have UDi2 on one bike only because I got such a screaming deal on the bike and decided to take the plunge. It has its own set of issues in terms of complexity (wiring and adjustment), although worrying about the battery is not a big issue. There may be benefits to electronic shifting that simply evade me since I'm not big into programming. As with most electronic devices, I'm only aware of a fraction of the features.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #9  
Old July 12th 19, 07:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Evans
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Posts: 27
Default Electronic Shifting

On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

I can't do that with my cell phone, my TV or even my TV remote, my CD player,
etc. They're reliable, but when they're not, they usually need replacement. I
wouldn't want that to happen to my shifters when I was 30 miles from home.

As long a you can set them to a specific gear its not much different
from having to tie a broken gear cable to the frame, which I think I
have had to do in the past


  #10  
Old July 12th 19, 09:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 624
Default Electronic Shifting

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:41:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou


The rear derailleur in an electronic shifting bike has the ratcheting mechanism in the derailleur. This is both a positive and a negative. It would seem to me that high quality stainless cables designed in a circular pattern would work as well if not better than an electronic design and would essentially last forever with internal routing.

As you probably saw in Stage 7, as one rider crossed the line he attempted to shift the front derailleur under load and it got caught in some intermedia position and he had to mess with it a second to get it into some gear so that he could cross the line under his own power. Looked to me like he lost a couple of seconds there.

I don't think that battery life is really a problem but it sure as hell isn't "2-3 years". And you do have to admit that it is a source for a possible failure more likely than a cable.

The auto-adjusting feature is a new one on me and that sounds clever.
 




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