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  #11  
Old July 12th 19, 09:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,123
Default Electronic Shifting

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:52:39 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 1:41:42 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting.. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou


Yeah. After my favourable experience with full auto cycling, which commuters and utility cyclists apparently didn't want though it was given a fair go by leading bicycle manufacturers, including Gaselle and Koga Miyata, I was surprised when roadies took up the cut-down version. But if it has the advantages you list, there should be a market among racers and serious riders, not just the tech-fashionistas (not a knock at anyone -- I'm one myself).. But, if I were in that roadie market, I'd be disappointed that after several years the price hasn't come down through economies of scale.

Andre Jute
Old Smoothie


That isn't the sort of group that would have economy of scale since it would require precise machining of the components making it only the top end components. The electronics themselves would make up a very small part of the cost.

However, I have no idea what the profit margins are on these components and that could cause a reduction in price.
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  #12  
Old July 12th 19, 10:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,123
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 10/07/2019 21:19, Tom Kunich wrote:

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


Long term it will probably be cheaper than mechanical.

It simplifies quite a few things. Simpler shifters, no gear cables, no
need for frame additions to route gear cables. The electronic components
will be dirt cheap.


What is the different between internal routing of wires (that come with the group) and cables? Since the ratcheting mechanism is in the rear derailleur instead of the shifters it would be a little cheaper to maintain I imagine.

Yesterday in Stage 7 you could see some guy grab a handful of brakes because he was about to touch a wheel. The hydraulic disk locked up and top-ended and threw him right on his face. Pretty ugly and EXACTLY what I did on my cyclocross bike.

I did notice that a lot of bikes had rim brakes yesterday. Pretty sure they were cable actuated.

I'm not anti-electrical groups. I just don't see any part for them in sports riding.
  #13  
Old July 12th 19, 10:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,123
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-7, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

I can't do that with my cell phone, my TV or even my TV remote, my CD player,
etc. They're reliable, but when they're not, they usually need replacement. I
wouldn't want that to happen to my shifters when I was 30 miles from home.

As long a you can set them to a specific gear its not much different
from having to tie a broken gear cable to the frame, which I think I
have had to do in the past


They don't supply any repair parts for Ultegra or DuraAce beyond levers and beauty caps. And they are EXPENSIVE.

You can get repair parts for Campy while the shifters are being built. As soon as production halts you have to hope that some distributor stocked some. And you have to buy or manufacture the assembly tools required.
  #14  
Old July 13th 19, 03:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,354
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.


Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski
  #15  
Old July 13th 19, 07:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 552
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:50:47 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:41:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.


I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting.. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou


The rear derailleur in an electronic shifting bike has the ratcheting mechanism in the derailleur. This is both a positive and a negative. It would seem to me that high quality stainless cables designed in a circular pattern would work as well if not better than an electronic design and would essentially last forever with internal routing.


Possible. The shifter of the Rohloff hub has a circular cable.

As you probably saw in Stage 7, as one rider crossed the line he attempted to shift the front derailleur under load and it got caught in some intermedia position and he had to mess with it a second to get it into some gear so that he could cross the line under his own power. Looked to me like he lost a couple of seconds there.


Yes that looked very strange. I don't know what he was doing but as far as I know he dropped his chain and was trying to get it on the chainwheel again, but because it was so steep there and he had almost no speed it took a whil. He lost no time though because he front wheel was already past the finish line.


I don't think that battery life is really a problem but it sure as hell isn't "2-3 years". And you do have to admit that it is a source for a possible failure more likely than a cable.


2-3 years seems a long time to me also. I'm not afraid of a possible failure and don't suffer from 'black box' syndrome. If I rent a bike when I am on cycling holiday and cannot bring my own bike I choose one with Di2 if that is possible. I think Di2 is about convenience. Not a game changer but nice..


The auto-adjusting feature is a new one on me and that sounds clever.


What I meant was auto trimming. One feature I do use is the adjustment while riding. I have two wheel I use and they require a different adjustment. I get the system in adjustment mode by pressing a button while riding. I see my current adjustment on the display of my Garmin and I know that one wheel need an adjustment of +2 and the other -1. Like I said convenience.

Lou

  #16  
Old July 13th 19, 07:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 552
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.


Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski


Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Lou
  #17  
Old July 13th 19, 03:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,354
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.


Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski


Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.


Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski

  #18  
Old July 13th 19, 06:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 552
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road..


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix..

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski


Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.


Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.

Lou
  #19  
Old July 13th 19, 08:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,123
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 11:03:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:50:47 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:41:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify.. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou


The rear derailleur in an electronic shifting bike has the ratcheting mechanism in the derailleur. This is both a positive and a negative. It would seem to me that high quality stainless cables designed in a circular pattern would work as well if not better than an electronic design and would essentially last forever with internal routing.


Possible. The shifter of the Rohloff hub has a circular cable.

As you probably saw in Stage 7, as one rider crossed the line he attempted to shift the front derailleur under load and it got caught in some intermedia position and he had to mess with it a second to get it into some gear so that he could cross the line under his own power. Looked to me like he lost a couple of seconds there.


Yes that looked very strange. I don't know what he was doing but as far as I know he dropped his chain and was trying to get it on the chainwheel again, but because it was so steep there and he had almost no speed it took a whil. He lost no time though because he front wheel was already past the finish line.


I don't think that battery life is really a problem but it sure as hell isn't "2-3 years". And you do have to admit that it is a source for a possible failure more likely than a cable.


2-3 years seems a long time to me also. I'm not afraid of a possible failure and don't suffer from 'black box' syndrome. If I rent a bike when I am on cycling holiday and cannot bring my own bike I choose one with Di2 if that is possible. I think Di2 is about convenience. Not a game changer but nice.


The auto-adjusting feature is a new one on me and that sounds clever.


What I meant was auto trimming. One feature I do use is the adjustment while riding. I have two wheel I use and they require a different adjustment. I get the system in adjustment mode by pressing a button while riding. I see my current adjustment on the display of my Garmin and I know that one wheel need an adjustment of +2 and the other -1. Like I said convenience.

Lou


The entire bike has to cross the line to count as a finish. He didn't drop the chain because shifting it a couple of times allowed him to pedal across the line.

The front wheel breaking the line is used to measure the sprinters.

The rules are a bit weird at times. He COULD have dismounted and walked across the line and that would have counted as finishing under his own power.
  #20  
Old July 13th 19, 08:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,123
Default Electronic Shifting

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 11:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.


Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski


Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Lou


Shimano really does have brifters down to an artform. When I install them on a bike they always work until dirt or dust gets into the 10 or more speed versions. I never saw a set of 8-speed brifters fail.
 




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