Compact frame vs Traditional Frame geometry

I don't know why so many are still attached to old headsets.

Because too many factories and/or shops cut steerer tubes short for that "racy"
look which makes fitting extremely difficult. If the steerer tubes were left
uncut until the buyer decides on an ideal height I'd support threadless as well
but leaving the steer tubes long is very rare.

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:53:19 +0000, Robin Hubert wrote:

You've never had to pound a cone-style quill stem bolt/binder system to
get the cone outa the quill?

Pound, no. Tap, yes.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
_`\(,_ | by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. --Ralph Waldo
(_)/ (_) | Emerson

H guy- well, i'm going to give the manufacturers the benefit of the doubt
here, and theorize that cheaper manufacturing leads to cheaper
prices, which puts more bikes between the legs of customers. if a
decent alu-framed bike costs you almost $2K, i'm betting you could
add another $.5K to get a nice handmade, lugged steel frame on there.
BRBR

Like threadless, that savings was not passed onto the consumer.

Lugged framesets from Mark Nobilette-custom are about $1600.



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

basjan- I like shimano HS..great design..

And the whole crowd fell silent BRBR

Ya need to read more of my posts or at least don't ignore the ones where I
think the shimano 'thing' is a great idea. Like MTB hubs for touring, samo for
their barends, samo for big MTB cogsets on road bikes, even with ERGO
shifting..

And when I say that Campagnolo package wheels are dumb, etc.

But when somebody 'accuses' me of being biased, I just smile..

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"David L. Johnson" wrote:

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:29:29 +0000, Tim McTeague wrote:

I don't know why so many are still attached to old headsets. I LOVE the
threadless design. Yes, I miss the easy adjustability of quill stems

Enough for me, there. A minor spill -- pushes your bars out of alignment,
then you have to re-adjust the headset?

Worse, due to the fact the threadless design grips the steer tube more
than is necessary, very likely the crash will bend your bars. Worse
yet, if your soft middle is what's doing the bending, the damage could
be painful.

With a threaded stem, the stem simply slips a bit. You stand the bike
up, twist it back and ride.

If you pack the bike for shipment with a threadless stem, the fork is
no longer held in. When you reassemble the bike, you'll have to futz
around with the headset preload. Oh, and did you remember to tape all
those spacers to the bike, or do you have to drive to the LBS to get
some more?

With a threaded stem, drop it in, set the height, twist the allen
wrench and ride. If you decide to raise the bars a bit in the middle
of a ride, it's a 30 second adjustment. With a threaded stem, you get
to pull the stem off, juggle washers, and reset your headset preload
(unless you drop one of the washers or bolts, in which case you get to
ride in the sag).

And, while I did not
have to adjust it often, I hated having to use those huge wrenchs. More
than once over the years my headset became lose on a ride and I had to
keep trying to tighten it with my hands, as who carries the proper tools
for that?

My headset has been quietly doing its job for two years. No adjustment.
Meanwhile, I move the bars to accomodate my aging back, no trouble, and to
re-align after falling in the rain.

I NEVER have to tighten my threaded headsets. Just get 'em right the
first time and ride until you decide to repack.

Threadless can be adjusted with just about any mini-tool.
Alligning the stem does not require me to "pound" the center bolt to free
the wedge as with quills.

"Pound"?

A love tap, maybe. With a bit of grease and an absolute minimal
amount of maintenance, you're not going to have any problems with a
threaded stem.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

(Chris Zacho "The Wheelman") wrote:

Basically, the shorter the tubes, the stiffer the frame.

Not really - this was discussed ad nauseum here many moons ago, and
there was no one who could make a case for that theory based on the
physics of the matter. In the end, the differences are going to be
absolutely miniscule one way or the other.

And lighter,
quicker response due to the shorter wheelbase.

No difference in wheelbase. And not lighter - we worked that one out
as well. The difference in tubing weight was almost exactly offset by
the extra long seat post. And that doesn't take into account the
strengthening you have to do to the compact frame's top tube / seat
tube / seat stay junction to handle the higher stresses from the
longer seat post (which effectively act as a longer lever arm).

'Course, all that doesn't mean the opposite won't appear in glossy ads
in your favorite cycling magazines (and in the "tech articles").
Sigh...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

If you pack the bike for shipment with a threadless stem, the fork is
no longer held in.

Since most threadless stems detach at the end, couldn't you just keep the fork
and stem in place and only remove the handlebars?
B

(remove clothes to reply)

lothes (B) wrote:

If you pack the bike for shipment with a threadless stem, the fork is
no longer held in.

Since most threadless stems detach at the end, couldn't you just keep the fork
and stem in place and only remove the handlebars?
B

You can, but on many bike that puts the stem in a position to poke
through the end of the box (and be damaged, or perhaps it makes the
bike "long" enough it doesn't fit in the box), or it's spun around and
may hit the top tube (depends on the rise and length, of course).

Barring that, it's certainly easy enough to do as you suggest without
fear of damage to anything. Well, other than the "normal damage" that
the shipping companies / airlines specialize in... ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

What is the main difference between the two bike geometries?

The most rational answer I've seen for this question was posted by
Gerard Vroomen of Cervelo, on the slowtwitch forum:
"The differences are actually very easy to measure and understand,
unfortunately few people in the industry are interested in the actual
differences or in testing and rather just make up stuff for their
brochure.

The differences between sloping and horizontal are small, but if you
use the same tubeset for both frames, the following differences will
occur:

1) slightly higher bottom bracker stiffness for the sloping frame
2) slightly higher torsional stiffness for the horizontal toptube
frame
3) slightly lighter frame with the sloping toptube
4) slightly lighter seatpost wit the horizontal toptube frame
5) slightly more seatpost compliance with the sloping frame.

issues 3 and 4 are a wash, and for us at Cervelo the choice between
sloping and horizontal depends on whatcombination we are looking for
out of 1, 2 and 5. For our Alu bikes, which have plenty of bb and
torsional stiffness anyway, we go with a sloping toptube (or a dropped
toptube on the tri bikes which has the same effect) to get a bit more
seatpost compliance.

For the steel frames, this is not necessary and so we can increase the
torsional stiffness by keeping the toptube horizontal, especially nice
for the twisting and turning on rough roads.

For the new carbon frame, the seatpost compliance wasn't an issue but
we did want to get the highest possible bb stiffness, so we opted for
a sloping frame."

Another great bargain in custom built lugged steel frames is Mercian. You
can order direct from them in England, if you don't have a dealer nearby --
and even when you factor in the astronomical shipping from England, the
frame and fork come in well under $1000.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
...
H guy- well, i'm going to give the manufacturers the benefit of the
doubt
here, and theorize that cheaper manufacturing leads to cheaper
prices, which puts more bikes between the legs of customers. if a
decent alu-framed bike costs you almost $2K, i'm betting you could
add another $.5K to get a nice handmade, lugged steel frame on there.
BRBR

Like threadless, that savings was not passed onto the consumer.

Lugged framesets from Mark Nobilette-custom are about $1600.



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"