riding on the sidewalk

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...604-story.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/5/2016 2:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...604-story.html

He was riding against the direction of traffic on a sidewalk. That's
much more dangerous than riding properly in the lane.

Unfortunately, many "protected cycletracks" put cyclists in exactly that
same situation.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 06/06/16 05:18, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2016 2:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...604-story.html


He was riding against the direction of traffic on a sidewalk. That's
much more dangerous than riding properly in the lane.

Unfortunately, many "protected cycletracks" put cyclists in exactly that
same situation.


Perhaps the "sidewalk" needs re-engineering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYjUHKlH9k

--
JS

https://www.google.com/#q=87th+Stree...Latrobe+Avenue

https://goo.gl/kdPzOf

search for: 87 and Latrobe then …..

cyclist emerged from behind the tree at a speed above legal sidewalk speeds then refused to yield to the truck

https://goo.gl/vBQYNe

On 6/5/2016 5:03 PM, James wrote:
On 06/06/16 05:18, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2016 2:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...604-story.html



He was riding against the direction of traffic on a sidewalk. That's
much more dangerous than riding properly in the lane.

Unfortunately, many "protected cycletracks" put cyclists in exactly that
same situation.


Perhaps the "sidewalk" needs re-engineering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYjUHKlH9k

I'm aware that these things, when well designed, seem to work in the
Netherlands. But I wonder if a necessary prerequisite for their success
is a culture that has deeply embraced cycling. In other words, I wonder
if certain cycling advocates have confused cause and effect.

I've not yet ridden in the Netherlands, but my daughter did. She
reported that in Amsterdam, she found the maze of bike facilities
confusing at times. But she took comfort in their strict liability
laws. She told us that there were many times that she got a bit
confused, but that motorists slammed to a stop to let her pass, with
never a complaint. They always seemed to be super-cautious around bikes.

In that culture, I suppose there's less risk for a cyclist in an
unexpected direction - because, I suppose, cyclists are expected to come
from any direction.

Here's her report, although she gave us much more detail at home:
http://bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/amsterdam.htm

And by the way, in not-too-distant Copenhagen, which also has a 100 year
bike culture, the best before-after studies of cycletracks found
significant _increases_ in crash rates! See
www.vehicularcyclist.com/copenhagen2.pdf
especially conclusion #2.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 06/06/16 11:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2016 5:03 PM, James wrote:
On 06/06/16 05:18, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2016 2:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...604-story.html




He was riding against the direction of traffic on a sidewalk. That's
much more dangerous than riding properly in the lane.

Unfortunately, many "protected cycletracks" put cyclists in exactly that
same situation.


Perhaps the "sidewalk" needs re-engineering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYjUHKlH9k

I'm aware that these things, when well designed, seem to work in the
Netherlands. But I wonder if a necessary prerequisite for their success
is a culture that has deeply embraced cycling. In other words, I wonder
if certain cycling advocates have confused cause and effect.

I've not yet ridden in the Netherlands, but my daughter did. She
reported that in Amsterdam, she found the maze of bike facilities
confusing at times. But she took comfort in their strict liability
laws. She told us that there were many times that she got a bit
confused, but that motorists slammed to a stop to let her pass, with
never a complaint. They always seemed to be super-cautious around bikes.


Interestingly & AFAIK, the strict liability laws only apply to monetary
liability. Could be wrong.

Also, I have been very confused by the maze of twisting and turning
roads around Brisbane - regardless whether I'm in a car or on a bike.
Melbourne was far easier to navigate.

In that culture, I suppose there's less risk for a cyclist in an
unexpected direction - because, I suppose, cyclists are expected to come
from any direction.

Here's her report, although she gave us much more detail at home:
http://bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/amsterdam.htm

And by the way, in not-too-distant Copenhagen, which also has a 100 year
bike culture, the best before-after studies of cycletracks found
significant _increases_ in crash rates! See
www.vehicularcyclist.com/copenhagen2.pdf
especially conclusion #2.


I note the last sentence from the Abstract.

--
JS

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 21:05:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/5/2016 5:03 PM, James wrote:
On 06/06/16 05:18, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/5/2016 2:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...604-story.html



He was riding against the direction of traffic on a sidewalk. That's
much more dangerous than riding properly in the lane.

Unfortunately, many "protected cycletracks" put cyclists in exactly that
same situation.


Perhaps the "sidewalk" needs re-engineering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYjUHKlH9k

I'm aware that these things, when well designed, seem to work in the
Netherlands. But I wonder if a necessary prerequisite for their success
is a culture that has deeply embraced cycling. In other words, I wonder
if certain cycling advocates have confused cause and effect.

I've not yet ridden in the Netherlands, but my daughter did. She
reported that in Amsterdam, she found the maze of bike facilities
confusing at times. But she took comfort in their strict liability
laws. She told us that there were many times that she got a bit
confused, but that motorists slammed to a stop to let her pass, with
never a complaint. They always seemed to be super-cautious around bikes.

In that culture, I suppose there's less risk for a cyclist in an
unexpected direction - because, I suppose, cyclists are expected to come
from any direction.

Here's her report, although she gave us much more detail at home:
http://bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/amsterdam.htm

And by the way, in not-too-distant Copenhagen, which also has a 100 year
bike culture, the best before-after studies of cycletracks found
significant _increases_ in crash rates! See
www.vehicularcyclist.com/copenhagen2.pdf
especially conclusion #2.

I think that there are a lot of different reasons for successful, or
unsuccessful, bicycle schemes.

For example, here an extremely large percent of the population
probably has access to a bicycle and people riding to the local market
aren't unusual at all. On our little lane you will normally see people
riding sedately down the street to buy the day's groceries.

Even riding the wrong way :-) is extremely common. There is even a
protocol for riding the wrong way and I was once reprimanded by a
bloke for doing it wrong. (doing wrong the wrong way?)

In addition to bicycles there are small 90 - 125cc motorcycles, even
"motorcycle taxies", who weave in and out of traffic, and have an
extremely high death rate.

So two wheeled vehicles are not unusual. In fact there are undoubtedly
more two wheel vehicles on the road that four wheeled, and it might be
added is not unusually for the motorcycles to be dodging in and out of
traffic.

So here two wheel vehicles are all over the place and "right to the
road" isn't really a question. Everyone has it and there is a sort of
unofficial understanding that in a collision the biggest vehicle is in
the wrong. This is not a legal ruling but if you are on a bicycle and
there is a collision with a pedestrian the police will grab the
cyclist. At least until they find out what really happened.

In contrast, in the U.S., when I was growing up, anyone 16 years or
older seen on a bicycle would have been considered as mentally
incompetent.

I suggest that the "car culture" in the U.S. probably has a very large
effect on the usual attitude to bicyclists that I see described here,
in contrast to what I see here.

I read that 30% of Dutch families do not own a car, in contrast over
90% of Usian families own one "OR MORE" cars.

I believe that comparing, for example, the U.S. and the Netherlands,
or any other country for that matter, is really not apples and apples.
--
cheers,

John B.

encouraging speed sports isnot training for speed sports ...to expand: there exists a spectrum of behavior of that NOT linked in dependency of results in what seems to be for some observers a linked relationship.

We are continuously asshole deep in these misunderstandings. The cemetery collects here.

To wit: knowing birds fly does not ..

I suggest we waterboard Frank to hear why he would float the linkage.

AMuzi wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...604-story.html

"the boy, who was eastbound on the 87th Street sidewalk, crossing Latrobe"

No telling what that's supposed to mean.

What is your point?

James wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...n/news/ct-sta-
burbank-bicyclist-killed-st-0605-20160604-story.html

He was riding against the direction of traffic on a sidewalk. That's
much more dangerous than riding properly in the lane.

Unfortunately, many "protected cycletracks" put cyclists in exactly that
same situation.

Perhaps the "sidewalk" needs re-engineering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYjUHKlH9k

That looks like a death trap.