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  #71  
Old January 16th 19, 05:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:02:00 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 6:01:06 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 3:24:46 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 7:54:04 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 4:17:07 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 5:31:24 AM UTC, news18 wrote:

So, effectively, the USA surrendered [in Vietnam].

Oh, it's worse than that. In The Devil's Pleasure Palace, Michael Walsh made the case that the US wanted to lose that war. Other historians and philosophers have made the point that stopping the 20th century's wars, and into this century, too soon just guaranteed that one unfinished war would be the flash-point for the next one. Iraq and Afghanistan are the recent examples commonly cited. Paul Johnson wrote of the deplorable effects of Americans' small-town morality when real politik was required. Walsh fixes the blame for this defeatist inability to conduct wars to their necessary conclusion on the Frankfurt School and its Critical Theory. I've been calling them commiepinkofellowtravellers since the 1960's and their theory the stinking detritus of resentful Germans who didn't know how to behave as guests in someone else's house. The little Antifa fascists are their children, and the modern Democratic Party is driven by Critical Theory's foolish fallacies. Their whole thing is cultural Marxism and, like other sorts of Marxism, it is a suicide cult in which limp-dick defeatism pigeonholes nicely into the their huge cupboard full of omnidirectional hate for Western civilisation. You're a representative example of what Critical Theory has done to two generations now.

Well that explains everything! Meanwhile, North Vietnam did not surrender.

-- Jay Beattie.

I got a haircut on Friday afternoon and my barber used to be a South Vietnamese government official. I told him what you said and he used a word that means "Eat ****". He said that the agreement was that the North would cease their invasion of the South and that the US would provide air support and military supplies to the South Vietnamese to maintain the status quo.
Not only did the North not even slow up the continuous invasion but that the US did absolutely nothing.

I would suggest you come down here and discuss it with him but he wields a mean straight razor.


Why? I can read the Paris Peace Accord. It's cut and dried. North Vietnam did not surrender. South Vietnam did not occupy or police North Vietnam.. North Vietnam did not pay reparations. There was no treaty. North Vietnam violated a cease fire.

Article 2

A cease fire shall be observed throughout South Viet-Nam as of 2400 hours GMT on January 27th 1973. At the same hour, the United States will stop all its military activities against the territory of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam by ground, air and naval forces, wherever they may be based, and end the mining of the territorial waters, ports, harbours, and waterways of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. The United States will remove, permanently deactivate or destroy all the mines in the territorial waters, ports, harbours, and waterways of North Vietnam as soon as this Agreement goes into effect. The complete cessation of hostilities mentioned in this Article shall be durable and without limit of time…

Article 4

The United States will not continue its military involvement or intervene in the internal affairs of South Vietnam.

Article 5

Within sixty days of the signing of this Agreement, there will be a total withdrawal from South Vietnam of troops, military advisers, and military personnel including technical military personnel and military personnel associated with the pacification program, armaments, munitions, and war material of the United States and those of the other foreign countries mentioned in Article 3(a). Advisers from the above-mentioned countries to all paramilitary organisations and the police force will also be withdrawn within the same period of time.

Article 6

The dismantlement of all military bases in South Vietnam of the United States and of the other foreign countries mentioned in Article 3(a) shall be completed within sixty days of the signing of this Agreement…

Article 8

(a) The return of captured military personnel and foreign civilians of the parties shall be carried out simultaneously with and completed not later than the same day as the troop withdrawal mentioned in Article 5. The parties shall exchange complete lists of the above-mentioned captured military personnel and foreign civilians on the day of the signing of this Agreement.

Ads
  #72  
Old January 16th 19, 05:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 10:11:55 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Way back when I was in college and had no money, I found a beautiful
little book in the library: _Instant Weather Forecasting_ by Alan Watts.


Must be a different Watts than I'm familiar with.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts

  #74  
Old January 16th 19, 05:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:36:19 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.


Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.


Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.


Hey dippy - I have flown over it in bombers at 5,000 ft. So shove your "pictures" since I looked at it through open bomb bay doors.


What bombers that carried internal payloads flew over north vietnam at 5000'? The only bombers the US used extensively in vietnam were B-52's which generally dropped their payload in the 30,000' range. it wasn't likely a b-52 (or any tactical bomber) would be flying at 5000' over hostile territory - that's well within range of a shoulder-launched AAM in that era.

Even so, are you going to tell us you could discern the condition of a road under a jungle canopy from 5000 feet away?

Not only are you smarter and more well-informed than anyone in this forum, you also have super vision powers!
  #75  
Old January 16th 19, 08:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On 1/16/2019 11:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:02:00 AM UTC-8, wrote:

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 6:01:06 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:

On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 3:24:46 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 7:54:04 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 4:17:07 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 5:31:24 AM UTC, news18 wrote:

So, effectively, the USA surrendered [in Vietnam].

Oh, it's worse than that. In The Devil's Pleasure Palace, Michael Walsh made the case that the US wanted to lose that war. Other historians and philosophers have made the point that stopping the 20th century's wars, and into this century, too soon just guaranteed that one unfinished war would be the flash-point for the next one. Iraq and Afghanistan are the recent examples commonly cited. Paul Johnson wrote of the deplorable effects of Americans' small-town morality when real politik was required. Walsh fixes the blame for this defeatist inability to conduct wars to their necessary conclusion on the Frankfurt School and its Critical Theory. I've been calling them commiepinkofellowtravellers since the 1960's and their theory the stinking detritus of resentful Germans who didn't know how to behave as guests in someone else's house. The little Antifa fascists are their children, and the modern Democratic Party is driven by Critical Theory's foolish fallacies. Their whole thing is cultural Marxism and, like other sorts of Marxism, it is a suicide cult in which limp-dick defeatism pigeonholes nicely into the their huge cupboard full of omnidirectional hate for Western civilisation. You're a representative example of what Critical Theory has done to two generations now.

Well that explains everything! Meanwhile, North Vietnam did not surrender.

-- Jay Beattie.

I got a haircut on Friday afternoon and my barber used to be a South Vietnamese government official. I told him what you said and he used a word that means "Eat ****". He said that the agreement was that the North would cease their invasion of the South and that the US would provide air support and military supplies to the South Vietnamese to maintain the status quo.
Not only did the North not even slow up the continuous invasion but that the US did absolutely nothing.

I would suggest you come down here and discuss it with him but he wields a mean straight razor.

Why? I can read the Paris Peace Accord. It's cut and dried. North Vietnam did not surrender. South Vietnam did not occupy or police North Vietnam. North Vietnam did not pay reparations. There was no treaty. North Vietnam violated a cease fire.

Article 2

A cease fire shall be observed throughout South Viet-Nam as of 2400 hours GMT on January 27th 1973. At the same hour, the United States will stop all its military activities against the territory of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam by ground, air and naval forces, wherever they may be based, and end the mining of the territorial waters, ports, harbours, and waterways of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. The United States will remove, permanently deactivate or destroy all the mines in the territorial waters, ports, harbours, and waterways of North Vietnam as soon as this Agreement goes into effect. The complete cessation of hostilities mentioned in this Article shall be durable and without limit of time…

Article 4

The United States will not continue its military involvement or intervene in the internal affairs of South Vietnam.

Article 5

Within sixty days of the signing of this Agreement, there will be a total withdrawal from South Vietnam of troops, military advisers, and military personnel including technical military personnel and military personnel associated with the pacification program, armaments, munitions, and war material of the United States and those of the other foreign countries mentioned in Article 3(a). Advisers from the above-mentioned countries to all paramilitary organisations and the police force will also be withdrawn within the same period of time.

Article 6

The dismantlement of all military bases in South Vietnam of the United States and of the other foreign countries mentioned in Article 3(a) shall be completed within sixty days of the signing of this Agreement…

Article 8

(a) The return of captured military personnel and foreign civilians of the parties shall be carried out simultaneously with and completed not later than the same day as the troop withdrawal mentioned in Article 5. The parties shall exchange complete lists of the above-mentioned captured military personnel and foreign civilians on the day of the signing of this Agreement.

(b) The Parties shall help each other to get information about those military personnel and foreign civilians of the parties missing in action, to determine the location and take care of the graves of the dead so as to facilitate the exhumation and repatriation of the remains…

Article 11

Immediately after the ceasefire, the two South Vietnamese parties will achieve national reconciliation and concord, end hatred and enmity, prohibit all acts of reprisal and discrimination against individuals or organisations that have collaborated with one side or the other… ensure the democratic liberties of the people: personal freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of meeting, freedom of organisation, freedom of political activities, freedom of belief, freedom of movement, freedom of residence, freedom of work, right to property ownership, and right to free enterprise…

Article 15

The reunification of Vietnam shall be carried out step by step through peaceful means on the basis of discussions and agreements between North and South Vietnam, without coercion or annexation by either party, and without foreign interference. The time for reunification will be agreed upon by North and South Vietnam…

Article 21

The United States anticipates that this Agreement will usher in an era of reconciliation with the Democratic Republic of Vietnam as with all the peoples of Indochina. In pursuance of its traditional policy, the United States will contribute to healing the wounds of war and to postwar reconstruction of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and throughout Indochina.

Article 22

The ending of the war, the restoration of peace in Viet-Nam, and the strict implementation of this Agreement will create conditions for establishing a new, equal and mutually beneficial relationship between the United States and the Democratic Republic of Vietnam on the basis of respect of each other’s independence and sovereignty, and non-interference in each other’s internal affairs.”


Blah, blah, blah . . . cease fire; we get our prisoners and . . . we're out of here!

-- Jay Beattie.


Yeah, we have you second most dangerous city in the country. That's saying a lot when you have Chicago and Detroit.


Hey, PDX didn't even make the top 100! I'm so disappointed. https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous And what does any of this have to do with the Paris Peace Accords?


Tom's conversations are a study in chaos theory.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #76  
Old January 16th 19, 09:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 2:04:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
Tom's conversations are a study in chaos theory.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Or the rantings of a bonafide lunatic.

Cheers
  #77  
Old January 17th 19, 12:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:47:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:36:19 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather"..

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.

Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.


Hey dippy - I have flown over it in bombers at 5,000 ft. So shove your "pictures" since I looked at it through open bomb bay doors.


What bombers that carried internal payloads flew over north vietnam at 5000'? The only bombers the US used extensively in vietnam were B-52's which generally dropped their payload in the 30,000' range. it wasn't likely a b-52 (or any tactical bomber) would be flying at 5000' over hostile territory - that's well within range of a shoulder-launched AAM in that era.

Even so, are you going to tell us you could discern the condition of a road under a jungle canopy from 5000 feet away?

Not only are you smarter and more well-informed than anyone in this forum, you also have super vision powers!


We would fly in at 20,000 and at the SAM sites would drop down to 5,000 ft to more accurately hit them. Not that it mattered a great deal since they were put up again next run.
  #78  
Old January 17th 19, 12:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:47:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:36:19 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather"..

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.

Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.


Hey dippy - I have flown over it in bombers at 5,000 ft. So shove your "pictures" since I looked at it through open bomb bay doors.


What bombers that carried internal payloads flew over north vietnam at 5000'? The only bombers the US used extensively in vietnam were B-52's which generally dropped their payload in the 30,000' range. it wasn't likely a b-52 (or any tactical bomber) would be flying at 5000' over hostile territory - that's well within range of a shoulder-launched AAM in that era.

Even so, are you going to tell us you could discern the condition of a road under a jungle canopy from 5000 feet away?

Not only are you smarter and more well-informed than anyone in this forum, you also have super vision powers!


As John pointed out. Most of the Ho Chi Minh trail wasn't trails at all but dirt roads.
  #79  
Old January 17th 19, 01:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:47:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:36:19 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather"..

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.

Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.


Hey dippy - I have flown over it in bombers at 5,000 ft. So shove your "pictures" since I looked at it through open bomb bay doors.


What bombers that carried internal payloads flew over north vietnam at 5000'? The only bombers the US used extensively in vietnam were B-52's which generally dropped their payload in the 30,000' range. it wasn't likely a b-52 (or any tactical bomber) would be flying at 5000' over hostile territory - that's well within range of a shoulder-launched AAM in that era.

Even so, are you going to tell us you could discern the condition of a road under a jungle canopy from 5000 feet away?

Not only are you smarter and more well-informed than anyone in this forum, you also have super vision powers!


As John pointed out, most of the Ho Chi Minh trail wasn't a jungle trail but was dirt roads. You don't believe they moved tons of material on their backs do you?
  #80  
Old January 17th 19, 01:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On 1/16/2019 6:01 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:47:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 11:38:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:36:19 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.

Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.

Hey dippy - I have flown over it in bombers at 5,000 ft. So shove your "pictures" since I looked at it through open bomb bay doors.


What bombers that carried internal payloads flew over north vietnam at 5000'? The only bombers the US used extensively in vietnam were B-52's which generally dropped their payload in the 30,000' range. it wasn't likely a b-52 (or any tactical bomber) would be flying at 5000' over hostile territory - that's well within range of a shoulder-launched AAM in that era.

Even so, are you going to tell us you could discern the condition of a road under a jungle canopy from 5000 feet away?

Not only are you smarter and more well-informed than anyone in this forum, you also have super vision powers!


As John pointed out, most of the Ho Chi Minh trail wasn't a jungle trail but was dirt roads. You don't believe they moved tons of material on their backs do you?


Viet Minh and Viet Cong were big on corvee labor, merging to
slavery but also made great use of French bicycles:

https://www.historynet.com/pedal-pow...me-vietnam.htm

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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