Beyond the Autobahn: Germany's New Bike Highways

On 2016-03-21 12:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 9:51:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-20 10:01, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


The highest bike mode share in the US is in a Porltand eastside
neighborhood:
http://www.cityclock.org/top-10-cycl.../#.Vu7T__krI2w


That neighborhood has traffic calmed streets, some bike lanes and no
MUPs. No bicycle highways -- just a bunch of Bohemians who want
to ride their bikes to work.
http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/...ree_other.html


http://www.neighborhoodnotes.com/new..._new_en ergy/
(bikes running stop signs)

I'm not saying bike facilities aren't good or fun or whatever;
however, a lot of cyclists do just fine without a Habitrail of
MUPs. I have for decades. And when your dealing with a dense city
without a lot of cheap dirt, you need to promote bicycling and
not the notion that bicycling can't be done without special
facilities -- which is counter-productive. As finances and
opportunities arise, you look at bang-for-the-buck facilities
which are mostly bike lanes.


Sure, same here. I don't mind bike lanes or even regular streets
with moderate traffic. What I and many others abhor is two-lane
highways with a 55mph limit, tons of traffic and not even a
shoulder. I am riding one of those almost weekly but can't remember
when I last saw another cyclist there. Which kind of proves my
point, doesn't it?

I used to ride down a shoulderless road with 55mph traffic every
morning -- for maybe seven years. Then the city put in a bike lane,
which made things much nicer. I certainly prefer having space to
ride in rather than fighting for the lane and support shoulders and
shoulder bike lanes. I don't think we disagree that having room to
ride is a good thing.

Nonetheless, most of my weekend riding is on shoulderless roads, some
with 55mph speed limits. I did an 80 mile romp through Washington
County on Saturday with a bunch of guys from Yakima (the rack company
and not the town in Washington), and everyone was out . There were a
bunch of dopes wobbling all over the place reading cue sheets and
even one woman with a radio or MP3 player or something blaring from
her handlebars. ...


Do you know where she got that? I am looking for a "blaring system", for
lonely stretches of singletrack.


They managed just fine, but again, it was not rush
hour. I would not want those guys on a shoulderless rural highways
with 55 MPH limits with heavy traffic. http://tinyurl.com/jktr7mh
I'm pretty sure that road has a 55 MPH speed limit since it is a
rural highway, but whatever the real speed limit, the cars and trucks
just go whatever speed they want.


Now imagine that during rush hour. I have to travel one of those and
usually around 4pm. On Fridays when many people knock off early it is
full of impatient divers, itching to get home so they can hook up the
travel trailer and head into the mountains. The real white knuckle
momemt is when two trucks approach and the one on your side does not
slow down. Or a truck passes and then another appraoches from the other
side faster than expected. Saw a nasty situation as a kid (cyclist in
front of me was brutally shoved into the ditch).

We can talk about this until the cows come home. The fact remains that
while you, Frank, some others here and I ride there (me with clenched
teeth), the vast majority of potential cylists say "No way!". They won't
ride. Even some seasoned ones won't. Here you see one lone cyclist:

https://goo.gl/maps/yYNMqYk3vkN2

That's not me but you rarely see any there. Experienced road bike riders
have said "You are going through there? Crazy! I'd never do that". When
I go through there it's with the ship fully lit. It may be uncomfy for
motorists seeing that bright light in their rear view but I want to be
noticed. 1/4mi later I dim it back down.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 1:39:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-21 12:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 9:51:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-20 10:01, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


The highest bike mode share in the US is in a Porltand eastside
neighborhood:
http://www.cityclock.org/top-10-cycl.../#.Vu7T__krI2w


That neighborhood has traffic calmed streets, some bike lanes and no
MUPs. No bicycle highways -- just a bunch of Bohemians who want
to ride their bikes to work.
http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/...ree_other.html


http://www.neighborhoodnotes.com/new..._new_en ergy/
(bikes running stop signs)

I'm not saying bike facilities aren't good or fun or whatever;
however, a lot of cyclists do just fine without a Habitrail of
MUPs. I have for decades. And when your dealing with a dense city
without a lot of cheap dirt, you need to promote bicycling and
not the notion that bicycling can't be done without special
facilities -- which is counter-productive. As finances and
opportunities arise, you look at bang-for-the-buck facilities
which are mostly bike lanes.


Sure, same here. I don't mind bike lanes or even regular streets
with moderate traffic. What I and many others abhor is two-lane
highways with a 55mph limit, tons of traffic and not even a
shoulder. I am riding one of those almost weekly but can't remember
when I last saw another cyclist there. Which kind of proves my
point, doesn't it?

I used to ride down a shoulderless road with 55mph traffic every
morning -- for maybe seven years. Then the city put in a bike lane,
which made things much nicer. I certainly prefer having space to
ride in rather than fighting for the lane and support shoulders and
shoulder bike lanes. I don't think we disagree that having room to
ride is a good thing.

Nonetheless, most of my weekend riding is on shoulderless roads, some
with 55mph speed limits. I did an 80 mile romp through Washington
County on Saturday with a bunch of guys from Yakima (the rack company
and not the town in Washington), and everyone was out . There were a
bunch of dopes wobbling all over the place reading cue sheets and
even one woman with a radio or MP3 player or something blaring from
her handlebars. ...


Do you know where she got that? I am looking for a "blaring system", for
lonely stretches of singletrack.


They managed just fine, but again, it was not rush
hour. I would not want those guys on a shoulderless rural highways
with 55 MPH limits with heavy traffic. http://tinyurl.com/jktr7mh
I'm pretty sure that road has a 55 MPH speed limit since it is a
rural highway, but whatever the real speed limit, the cars and trucks
just go whatever speed they want.


Now imagine that during rush hour. I have to travel one of those and
usually around 4pm. On Fridays when many people knock off early it is
full of impatient divers, itching to get home so they can hook up the
travel trailer and head into the mountains. The real white knuckle
momemt is when two trucks approach and the one on your side does not
slow down. Or a truck passes and then another appraoches from the other
side faster than expected. Saw a nasty situation as a kid (cyclist in
front of me was brutally shoved into the ditch).

We can talk about this until the cows come home. The fact remains that
while you, Frank, some others here and I ride there (me with clenched
teeth), the vast majority of potential cylists say "No way!". They won't
ride. Even some seasoned ones won't. Here you see one lone cyclist:

https://goo.gl/maps/yYNMqYk3vkN2

I don't get that at all. A bike lane! Pristine asphalt! That is an awesome facility that apparently goes on for a long way (although I'm not going to spend all day scrolling down the road). What do the frady-cats want -- this? http://crispgreen.com/files/2010/10/mono1-600x398.jpg

The vast majority -- and I mean the vast-vast majority -- of Portland cyclists would take that dry, clean, flat-ish facility in a heart beat. Goddamn, sign me up! http://tinyurl.com/h935kbc


That's not me but you rarely see any there. Experienced road bike riders
have said "You are going through there? Crazy! I'd never do that". When
I go through there it's with the ship fully lit. It may be uncomfy for
motorists seeing that bright light in their rear view but I want to be
noticed. 1/4mi later I dim it back down.

There is a huge, shelter lane before the on-ramp. If cars are coming, you have a basketball court sized area to wait it out. FNA, try this every morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgYXYtzbv0w Well, not every morning.. I rode in over he hills this morning. That's the deal -- there are other ways if you're a frady-cat or if you want to burn some calories.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2016-03-21 14:54, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 1:39:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-21 12:18, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


They managed just fine, but again, it was not rush
hour. I would not want those guys on a shoulderless rural
highways with 55 MPH limits with heavy traffic.
http://tinyurl.com/jktr7mh I'm pretty sure that road has a 55 MPH
speed limit since it is a rural highway, but whatever the real
speed limit, the cars and trucks just go whatever speed they
want.


Now imagine that during rush hour. I have to travel one of those
and usually around 4pm. On Fridays when many people knock off early
it is full of impatient divers, itching to get home so they can
hook up the travel trailer and head into the mountains. The real
white knuckle momemt is when two trucks approach and the one on
your side does not slow down. Or a truck passes and then another
appraoches from the other side faster than expected. Saw a nasty
situation as a kid (cyclist in front of me was brutally shoved into
the ditch).

We can talk about this until the cows come home. The fact remains
that while you, Frank, some others here and I ride there (me with
clenched teeth), the vast majority of potential cylists say "No
way!". They won't ride. Even some seasoned ones won't. Here you see
one lone cyclist:

https://goo.gl/maps/yYNMqYk3vkN2

I don't get that at all. A bike lane! Pristine asphalt!

Where? It ends right at that first traffic light. Afterwards nada, zip.
Instead, you have a high-speed merge lane coming from the right and
after the short tunnel another one. Except that the 2nd one adds more
sizzle because you have two lanes merging in. Plus lots of impatient
drivers wanting to cross all the way over to get into the town center.
They are coming at you at high speed from left and right. A traffic
engineering blunder par excellence.


... That is an
awesome facility that apparently goes on for a long way (although I'm
not going to spend all day scrolling down the road).


You have no idea until you traveled that during rush hour.


... What do the
frady-cats want -- this?
http://crispgreen.com/files/2010/10/mono1-600x398.jpg

The vast majority -- and I mean the vast-vast majority -- of Portland
cyclists would take that dry, clean, flat-ish facility in a heart
beat. Goddamn, sign me up! http://tinyurl.com/h935kbc


Down there it's easy. Except when you have to cross all the lanes for a
left turn in dense traffic, as i always have to do. The problem is the
tunnel and right after.


That's not me but you rarely see any there. Experienced road bike
riders have said "You are going through there? Crazy! I'd never do
that". When I go through there it's with the ship fully lit. It may
be uncomfy for motorists seeing that bright light in their rear
view but I want to be noticed. 1/4mi later I dim it back down.

There is a huge, shelter lane before the on-ramp. If cars are
coming, you have a basketball court sized area to wait it out.


Then be prepared for a loooong wait. And hope that nobody spins out as
happens a lot there.


... FNA,
try this every morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgYXYtzbv0w
Well, not every morning. I rode in over he hills this morning.


I'd do it if I have to but not every day. Then I'd prefer a car.


That's the deal -- there are other ways if you're a frady-cat or if
you want to burn some calories.


Burning calories is never a problem with me. If there is a safer detour
I take it. Because I don't want to end up like the gal on Blue Ravine in
Folsom, a similar road but higher speed, before it had bike lanes: Dead.
Rear-ended by a driver who thought she could switch to the right lane at
full speed to pass a left-turning motorist. The cyclist was in the lane,
uphill, thus slow.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-03-21 13:53, Phil W Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 21 Mar 2016
09:52:05 -0700 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-03-21 02:59, Phil W Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Sun, 20 Mar 2016
08:25:08 -0700 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-03-19 19:22, Phil W Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Sat, 19 Mar 2016
07:11:15 -0700 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-03-18 19:06, Phil W Lee wrote:

[...]


Or maybe it's undergrads who are on a list which gets blocked unless
they've been authorised.
Easy to enforce either way, especially on undergrads, over whom they
hold the ultimate sanction of being sent down.


Dream on. Even in a James Bond move that would never work. Whatever
"sending down" means, a CA university has to be very careful about
triggering a lawsuit. Anyhow, none of this happens, they all come and go
as they please. I think that university relies on the people being
sensible and not some nanny method. It works, as is evidenced by the
huge number of cyclists on campus.

And the ban on the overnight parking of motor vehicles, of course,
already cited from their very own web site.


That is normal policy even at the supermarket. They don't want people to
camp out in vans, pickups or station wagons. As I have repeatedlt stated
here, freshmen do have cars and they simply park them on adjacent
streets. The ones with wealthier parents also use them on occasion to
get to classes, on campus. You slide in the credit card, out comes the
parking permit, and that's that. It is simple.

Except, of course, that they aren't allowed to.
They don't state what the penalty is for getting caught breaking
college statutes is, or how much enforcement there is, but it seems to
work because there are lots of bikes and hardly any cars.


Wrong. There's tons of cars on campus. Please check the Google Street
View links I posted again. That's proof.

I did,...


Get your glasses and do it again. If you can't see the cars please give
back your driver's license.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

the Turnpike Effect

http://www.canoekayak.com/canoe/45-m...Uj7Tk0B7gsM.97

On 3/21/2016 1:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-03-21 12:12, Radey Shouman wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2016-03-18 20:19, Phil W Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 18 Mar 2016
09:21:33 -0700 the perfect time to write:

So you only buy shop-soiled goods in the US?



Huh?


Strange, that isn't what I saw when I was there. Large ticket and
heavy items usually have a display model on the sales floor, and if
you choose that model, an assistant will then fetch it in it's sealed
box from the stock room. Just like here, except that in the example I
gave, the stock room is conveniently located next to the parking
instead of a bus-ride away from it.


Not where we live. You look at a microwave oven, like it, load it onto
a large cart. Along with several crates of beverages, a couple of new
large dog pillows and so forth. Then you pass a cash register, pay,
and cart it straight to your car. That is what we call efficient
shopping. We do not like to then stand in line at some other location
and wait until a clerk finds and hands us all those things from a
warehouse, only to discover that one of the dog pillows he grabbed has
a stain, then he has to call his supervisor, then ...

Be serious. If you're buying a (new) microwave oven in the US, you look
at the demonstrator, and, if you like it, you take the same model packed
in a cardboard box. If you open the box and don't buy it the staff may
get a bit snippy.


That is what I mean. Phil has to go pick it up at some distant depot, we
can pull it out of the shelf right then and there. Of course you'd not
pick the demo model in front, they won't even let you buy that.

We used to have a lot stores like that in the U.S.. There was one unit
on display, and the actual goods were not in a distant depot but they
were in a warehouse and it could take 15-30 minutes for them to be
picked from the warehouse and brought up to the place where you paid.
Best Products and Service Merchandise were two such chains.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_Products
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Merchandise. The appeal to the
store of this system was that customers were not out there opening boxes
and wrecking stuff, and losses to theft were minimal.

Stores like Price Club, Costco, BJ's, and Sam's Club drove those other
stores out of business, since they are so much more efficient. They've
kept theft down with the membership model.

The large appliance business still tends to have few stores with actual
stock, and it can take a week or more to get an appliance that you buy
at Home Depot, Sears, or Fry's, delivered. At least Sears will do
store-pickup where they ship to store and there is no delivery charge.
Lowe's at least has a lot of items stocked in each store for immediate
pick-up.

On 3/21/2016 9:50 AM, Joerg wrote:

For the umpteenth time there is no prohibition of cars by UC Davis. If
so, please provide a link with quote.

"Residence Halls
Students living in the residence halls are not eligible to purchase
campus parking permits. Residence hall students may not bring a car to
campus and instead are expected to utilize public transportation."

http://housing.ucdavis.edu/prospective/parking.asp

This is pretty standard at universities throughout the country, at least
for freshman. They often do allow other students to buy a parking
permit, even if living on campus, but the lots they can park in can be
pretty distant.

My daughter went to U.C. Santa Cruz:
"Parking Prohibition for Residential Freshmen and Sophomore Students
First and second-year students (students with less than 90 units) that
reside in on- or off-campus University housing facilities are not
eligible to purchase a permit (except motorcycle permits) to park
on-campus. Learn more about the student parking prohibition and
off-campus parking lots."

And once you're a junior and can purchase a permit even if living on
campus, or if you live off-campus, it's over $500 per year for a permit.

Anyone can purchase hourly permits from machines, but you'd spend
thousands of dollars per year if you did this. UC Davis sells daily
permits to visitor for $9, but visitors can't purchase monthly permits.

Sure you could have someone else purchase a permit for you, but if you
get caught you're both in serious trouble.

Am 21.03.2016 um 17:50 schrieb Joerg:
On 2016-03-20 10:01, jbeattie wrote:

Folsom has a population of 72,000. In 2010 it had a 1.2% mode share.
Let's give it a bump to 2% to adjust for the last five years.
Assuming all 72,000 residents were using their vehicles, that means
roughly 1,400 cyclists. One Portland bridge (out of 8) handles twice
that number in one direction during a usual work day.
http://portland-hawthorne-bridge.visio-tools.com/ And that's just
traffic moving from east to west across the Willamette River.

My philosophy is a very different one. 1.2% and rising is way better
than what we had 20 years ago where you could hardly see any cyclists.

Both views are correct depending on the question. If you are asking:
"are bicycles making an impact on the amount of cars around?" the answer
must be clearly 'no'. If you are asking 'is bicycling contributing to
the health of the population?' then the answer is clearly 'yes, so every
increase counts'.

With these numbers it's correct to build bike trails and MUPs with the
aim of promoting cycling but not correct to put any investment into
reducing the car commutes.

On 2016-03-22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 21.03.2016 um 17:50 schrieb Joerg:
On 2016-03-20 10:01, jbeattie wrote:

Folsom has a population of 72,000. In 2010 it had a 1.2% mode share.
Let's give it a bump to 2% to adjust for the last five years.
Assuming all 72,000 residents were using their vehicles, that means
roughly 1,400 cyclists. One Portland bridge (out of 8) handles twice
that number in one direction during a usual work day.
http://portland-hawthorne-bridge.visio-tools.com/ And that's just
traffic moving from east to west across the Willamette River.

My philosophy is a very different one. 1.2% and rising is way better
than what we had 20 years ago where you could hardly see any cyclists.

Both views are correct depending on the question. If you are asking:
"are bicycles making an impact on the amount of cars around?" the answer
must be clearly 'no'.


For my car it sure does. Down to 1200 miles/year. Bicycle miles went up
to 4000-5000 miles/year, about half on the MTB. The nice thing is now I
get a little discount on my car insurance because of decreased accident
risk.

Most people will not go to this extreme but when I lived in the
Netherlands there were lots of people like that who barely used their
cars. Some of them didn't have one and a usual statement was that this
is because of the excellent bike path system. Of course, for long trips
they relied on trains which also isn't a 100% clean mode of transportation.


... If you are asking 'is bicycling contributing to
the health of the population?' then the answer is clearly 'yes, so every
increase counts'.


Which means less ambulance rides and thus less vehicles on the road :-)


With these numbers it's correct to build bike trails and MUPs with the
aim of promoting cycling but not correct to put any investment into
reducing the car commutes.


Not for longhaul commuters but as the city of Davis nicely shows it can
also substantially reduce car traffic. It took them decades to get there
though, it's not that if you build 10 bike paths everyone will switch
tomorrow.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-03-21 23:35, sms wrote:
On 3/21/2016 9:50 AM, Joerg wrote:

For the umpteenth time there is no prohibition of cars by UC Davis. If
so, please provide a link with quote.

"Residence Halls
Students living in the residence halls are not eligible to purchase
campus parking permits. Residence hall students may not bring a car to
campus and instead are expected to utilize public transportation."

http://housing.ucdavis.edu/prospective/parking.asp

This is pretty standard at universities throughout the country, at least
for freshman. They often do allow other students to buy a parking
permit, even if living on campus, but the lots they can park in can be
pretty distant.


It's a toothless regulation. Any regulation or law that isn't
enforceable (and this one is not) is rather meaningless. I have
personally met students who had cars, generally parked them outside and
when the weather was real bad, their parents visited or whatever, they
spent the money and pulled a day pass out of a parking permit machine.


My daughter went to U.C. Santa Cruz:
"Parking Prohibition for Residential Freshmen and Sophomore Students
First and second-year students (students with less than 90 units) that
reside in on- or off-campus University housing facilities are not
eligible to purchase a permit (except motorcycle permits) to park
on-campus. Learn more about the student parking prohibition and
off-campus parking lots."

And once you're a junior and can purchase a permit even if living on
campus, or if you live off-campus, it's over $500 per year for a permit.

Anyone can purchase hourly permits from machines, but you'd spend
thousands of dollars per year if you did this. UC Davis sells daily
permits to visitor for $9, but visitors can't purchase monthly permits.


I can buy a business visitor pass which IIRC is monthly. Not sure if
they offer half-year passes there.

And it's not thousands. $9 for 200 days is $1800. That is peanuts
compared to what their parents spend for out-of-state tuition and to buy
them a car. I am not saying this is right, not at all, but it's being done.


Sure you could have someone else purchase a permit for you, but if you
get caught you're both in serious trouble.


How would they ever catch you? Prowling through DMV records to see if
any names are similar to UC Davis freshmens, or their parent's names if
they registered the car? Without a search warrant? Interrogate everyone
with the name John Miller in California to see if he is "the" Joe Miller
in dorm room xxx? We aren't quite at that point yet.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/