track tubulars

At the moment i have some 700 x 21 vittoria corsa cs Tubular tyres fitted,
but the are a bit slippery at slower speeds. I nearly slid off twice while
riding round the blue line at moderate pace.Which Tubular tyres would be the
best for training and have a bit of grip about them or is their something i
can do to my corsa's to improve the grip.

the track is 250 metres so fairly steep sided.

cheers
Jon_H

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:22 +0000, Jon_H wrote:

At the moment i have some 700 x 21 vittoria corsa cs Tubular tyres fitted,
but the are a bit slippery at slower speeds. I nearly slid off twice while
riding round the blue line at moderate pace.Which Tubular tyres would be the
best for training and have a bit of grip about them or is their something i
can do to my corsa's to improve the grip.

the track is 250 metres so fairly steep sided.

What sort of surface is it? I would imagine that a wood track might have
special requirements, but concrete should be fine with any decent tire.

You really should not feel any slip on a banked track; ideally your net
force will be perpendicular to the track surface. Maybe you were going
too slowly?*

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
_`\(,_ | mathematics.
(_)/ (_) |

"David L. Johnson" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:22 +0000, Jon_H wrote:

At the moment i have some 700 x 21 vittoria corsa cs Tubular tyres
fitted,
but the are a bit slippery at slower speeds. I nearly slid off twice
while
riding round the blue line at moderate pace.Which Tubular tyres would be
the
best for training and have a bit of grip about them or is their
something i
can do to my corsa's to improve the grip.

the track is 250 metres so fairly steep sided.

What sort of surface is it? I would imagine that a wood track might have
special requirements, but concrete should be fine with any decent tire.

You really should not feel any slip on a banked track; ideally your net
force will be perpendicular to the track surface. Maybe you were going
too slowly?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
_`\(,_ | mathematics.
(_)/ (_) |



It is a wood surface, I was travelling in a line at the time and nobody else
seemed to have the problem it was only me that was slipping about going at
the same speed.

cheers
Jon_H

"Omnia sunt hominum tenui pendentia filo:
Et subito casu, quae valuere, ruunt." - Ovid
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:21:00 GMT, "Jon_H" wrote:

"David L. Johnson" wrote
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:22 +0000, Jon_H wrote:

At the moment i have some 700 x 21 vittoria corsa cs Tubular tyres
fitted,
but the are a bit slippery at slower speeds. I nearly slid off twice
while
riding round the blue line at moderate pace.Which Tubular tyres would be
the
best for training and have a bit of grip about them or is their
something i
can do to my corsa's to improve the grip.

the track is 250 metres so fairly steep sided.

What sort of surface is it? I would imagine that a wood track might have
special requirements, but concrete should be fine with any decent tire.

You really should not feel any slip on a banked track; ideally your net
force will be perpendicular to the track surface. Maybe you were going
too slowly?

It is a wood surface, I was travelling in a line at the time and nobody else
seemed to have the problem it was only me that was slipping about going at
the same speed.

Over time, various Vittoria tire models have borne the letters "CS" in
their names, so I don't know exactly which one you have. If however,
yours has any colored (other than black) tread on it, the compound is
silica based and will be particularly prone to slip-out on wood
velodromes. Several wood velodromes have actually banned colored tires
from use at their facilities because of the high incidence of
slipping.

The issue seems to be that the silica-based rubber compounds have a
"tacky" (sticky, not just of questionable taste) property to which the
dust and dirt stick. After some laps, it accumulates to a thin layer
of felt that offers much less traction. There are lint-brushes for
clothes that work on the same principle.

Tires with carbon black tread are less prone to this and therefore
generally less likely to slip-out at the same lean angle than those
with silica tread. (Latex tread would be good too, but those tires
won't be found at prices appropriate for a training tire).

On velodromes with more abrasive surfaces than wood, silica-based
treads work fine since that felt-like layer doesn't build up because
the texture of the track surface scuffs it away.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:05:23 -0500, "David L. Johnson"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:22 +0000, Jon_H wrote:


the track is 250 metres so fairly steep sided.

What sort of surface is it? I would imagine that a wood track might have
special requirements, but concrete should be fine with any decent tire.

You really should not feel any slip on a banked track; ideally your net
force will be perpendicular to the track surface. Maybe you were going
too slowly?*

The speed at which this happens is quite high, as tracks tend to be
designed for Olympic class athletes and you don't want the team sprint
riders going too far past 90 degrees to the track surface at 40+ mph.

My brother reckons the 250m Manchester track "feels" steeper than the
142m Calshot one, though the actual banking angle is probably much the
same.

As far as tyres go, try something with the word Pista written on it!

Vittoria Atlanta Track
Weight: 270g.
Size 700x22. Entry level track tubular.
about GBP14 each over here

Vittoria Pista CS
Weight: 270g.
Excellent for track training, the PISTA CS is long lasting with
excellent behaviour.
about GBP18

Vittoria Pista Evo-CL
Weight: 150g (22mm), 135g (19mm)
Top of the range track tubular developed in collaboration with the
Australian National Track team and the World Cycling Centre athletes.
A completely slick tread pattern.

Vittoria Pista Evo-CS
Weight: 150g (22mm), 135g (19mm)
Top of the range track tubular developed in collaboration with the
Australian National Track team and the World Cycling Centre athletes.
A slight diamond tread pattern.

The Pista-Evo tyres are about GBP32
Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:21:19 -0500, John Dacey
wrote:

"Omnia sunt hominum tenui pendentia filo:
Et subito casu, quae valuere, ruunt." - Ovid

Quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur

Ron

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:21:00 GMT, "Jon_H" wrote:

"David L. Johnson" wrote
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:22 +0000, Jon_H wrote:

At the moment i have some 700 x 21 vittoria corsa cs Tubular tyres
fitted,
but the are a bit slippery at slower speeds. I nearly slid off twice
while
riding round the blue line at moderate pace.Which Tubular tyres would be
the
best for training and have a bit of grip about them or is their
something i
can do to my corsa's to improve the grip.

the track is 250 metres so fairly steep sided.

What sort of surface is it? I would imagine that a wood track might have
special requirements, but concrete should be fine with any decent tire.

You really should not feel any slip on a banked track; ideally your net
force will be perpendicular to the track surface. Maybe you were going
too slowly?

It is a wood surface, I was travelling in a line at the time and nobody else
seemed to have the problem it was only me that was slipping about going at
the same speed.

Over time, various Vittoria tire models have borne the letters "CS" in
their names, so I don't know exactly which one you have. If however,
yours has any colored (other than black) tread on it, the compound is
silica based and will be particularly prone to slip-out on wood
velodromes. Several wood velodromes have actually banned colored tires
from use at their facilities because of the high incidence of
slipping.

The issue seems to be that the silica-based rubber compounds have a
"tacky" (sticky, not just of questionable taste) property to which the
dust and dirt stick. After some laps, it accumulates to a thin layer
of felt that offers much less traction. There are lint-brushes for
clothes that work on the same principle.

Tires with carbon black tread are less prone to this and therefore
generally less likely to slip-out at the same lean angle than those
with silica tread. (Latex tread would be good too, but those tires
won't be found at prices appropriate for a training tire).

On velodromes with more abrasive surfaces than wood, silica-based
treads work fine since that felt-like layer doesn't build up because
the texture of the track surface scuffs it away.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:21:00 GMT "Jon_H" wrote:

It is a wood surface, I was travelling in a line at the time and nobody else
seemed to have the problem it was only me that was slipping about going at
the same speed.

I can't speak from experience here, but I would think that if either
of your wheels had actually slipped at all, then you would have
fallen. It just doesn't seem possible to have recovered from something
like this.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

"Jim Adney" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:21:00 GMT "Jon_H" wrote:

It is a wood surface, I was travelling in a line at the time and nobody
else
seemed to have the problem it was only me that was slipping about going
at
the same speed.

I can't speak from experience here, but I would think that if either
of your wheels had actually slipped at all, then you would have
fallen. It just doesn't seem possible to have recovered from something
like this.

You obviously don't speak from experience. It is recoverable, but not
always! Pointing your wheel down the track and speeding up is the only way
out of it.
New tyres on wood will always do this, if you haven't worn off the
release/moulding agent from the surface. So if you have new singles on,
make sure you do a few laps on the concrete at the bottom or in the middle,
or out in the carpark to scuff them up first. Some people lightly sand them
to scuff them up a bit. Sprinters are probably the best to talk to on this,
as they tend to go the slowest!
We (me and other half) have had quite good experience with Tufo's S22 Pros
(black tread), Continental Competition (black tread), Continental Tempo
(grey and black tread) and some mixed views on the Vittoria Pista slicks
(CS?) (they seem the slipperiest, also the narrowest). We ride a 250m
indoor wood 'drome, 43deg bank. Lots of people avoid the Vittoria Golds
(yellow tread) as they're rumoured to be really slippery.
People that haven't ridden the track for some seasons and have 'old' tyres
seem to fall off a lot too, and generally the tyres are blamed (althought
I'd suggest it's lack of track craft in some cases!). The tracks can get
extremely dusty which also helps with slippage. If your tyres are wet you
won't stay up either, so if you've come in through the rain, dry them off
first!
Hope this helps,
Gemma

"Gemma_k" wrote in message
...
We (me and other half) have had quite good experience with Tufo's S22
Pros
(black tread), Continental Competition (black tread), Continental Tempo
(grey and black tread) and some mixed views on the Vittoria Pista slicks
(CS?) (they seem the slipperiest, also the narrowest). We ride a 250m
indoor wood 'drome, 43deg bank. Lots of people avoid the Vittoria Golds
(yellow tread) as they're rumoured to be really slippery.

Just to add to my own post, if you ride both indoor and outdoor tracks I'd
recommend the Tufo S22's, Competitions or Tempo's, in that order of
preference. All out outdoor tracks tend to have glass/prickles/stone chips
and these are the only ones that seem to have any puncture resistance. The
Vittoria Pistas might last a week outdoors (here anyway!). The tufo's are
nice and cheap, and you can still put 220psi in them ;-)
For indoors the Continental Sondeclasse's are the nicest/grippiest I've
ridden and also the dearest.

Gemma

The tyres I was using were yellow and very slippery I hve bought some
'BLACK' Vittoria pista CS tyres from parker international now, thanks for
all the advice - now to stick them on.

cheers
Jon_H