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  #1  
Old October 11th 19, 11:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,410
Default Beginner question


It's been half a century since I needed the information, so I'm not
sure. Is a nineteen-inch bicycle frame nineteen inches from the
center of the bottom bracket to the center of the seat cluster?
"Center" defined as the middle of the top tube.

I measured my Fuji at 20.5 inches, and the guy I stole it from said
"twenty-one inches" sounded familiar.

To the top of the top tube seems more logical, since it's the
stand-over height one is interested in -- a fat-tube aluminum bike
would measure undersized if measured to the middle.

When I was thirty and forty and sixty I didn't mind that he's an inch
taller than me, but now that I'm seventy-nine, I've fallen over while
mounting twice, and think it's time to put the word out that I'm in
the market for an elderly bike that is compatible with my elderly
components.

But I have to say what size I want.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
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  #2  
Old October 12th 19, 12:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,162
Default Beginner question

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 18:46:52 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:


It's been half a century since I needed the information, so I'm not
sure. Is a nineteen-inch bicycle frame nineteen inches from the
center of the bottom bracket to the center of the seat cluster?
"Center" defined as the middle of the top tube.

I measured my Fuji at 20.5 inches, and the guy I stole it from said
"twenty-one inches" sounded familiar.

To the top of the top tube seems more logical, since it's the
stand-over height one is interested in -- a fat-tube aluminum bike
would measure undersized if measured to the middle.

When I was thirty and forty and sixty I didn't mind that he's an inch
taller than me, but now that I'm seventy-nine, I've fallen over while
mounting twice, and think it's time to put the word out that I'm in
the market for an elderly bike that is compatible with my elderly
components.

But I have to say what size I want.


Most of the formula use height and in-seam measurements use . Try
https://www.bicycle-guider.com/bike-...ke-size-chart/ and
compare it with your current bike, but beware that this fits you to
the bicycle, i.e., essentially the distance from the seat to the pedal
at the bottom of its stroke and if your problem is getting from the
ground to the top of the thing you will need to change these
measurements. But beware that the closer the seat is to the ground the
shorter the distance from the seat to the pedal will be and you may
find yourself pedaling with bent knees which can be uncomfortable as
well as inefficient.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #3  
Old October 12th 19, 03:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,333
Default Beginner question

On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 6:46:57 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:
It's been half a century since I needed the information, so I'm not
sure. Is a nineteen-inch bicycle frame nineteen inches from the
center of the bottom bracket to the center of the seat cluster?
"Center" defined as the middle of the top tube.

I measured my Fuji at 20.5 inches, and the guy I stole it from said
"twenty-one inches" sounded familiar.

To the top of the top tube seems more logical, since it's the
stand-over height one is interested in -- a fat-tube aluminum bike
would measure undersized if measured to the middle.

When I was thirty and forty and sixty I didn't mind that he's an inch
taller than me, but now that I'm seventy-nine, I've fallen over while
mounting twice, and think it's time to put the word out that I'm in
the market for an elderly bike that is compatible with my elderly
components.

But I have to say what size I want.


As I recall, some manufacturers quoted a measurement that was center of BB to
center of top tube (at its intersection with the center of the seat tube.)
Other manufacturers quoted center of BB to top of top tube at its intersection
with the center of the seat tube.

More briefly, it was never really standardized. Some companies did it one way,
some did it the other.

Even with fat aluminum tubes, the difference isn't much. I think I'd assume
the size was measured center to center when shopping. If the bike you chose
turned out to be measured center to top, it would come out maybe 3/4" or 19mm
smaller. You could raise the seatpost a bit extra to compensate.

But so many bikes are now sold with sizing like Small, Medium or Large that I'm
a bit surprised it matters!

- Frank Krygowski
  #4  
Old October 12th 19, 04:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,410
Default Beginner question

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 06:22:13 +0700, John B.
wrote:


Most of the formula use height and in-seam measurements use . Try
https://www.bicycle-guider.com/bike-...ke-size-chart/ and
compare it with your current bike, but beware that this fits you to
the bicycle, i.e., essentially the distance from the seat to the pedal
at the bottom of its stroke and if your problem is getting from the
ground to the top of the thing you will need to change these
measurements. But beware that the closer the seat is to the ground the
shorter the distance from the seat to the pedal will be and you may
find yourself pedaling with bent knees which can be uncomfortable as
well as inefficient.


Seat height is easly adjusted; it concerns me more that a shorter seat
tube implies a shorter top tube, and I'm perfectly happy once I get
aboard.

A mixte of the same height would be perfect, but nowadays people think
that "mixte" is another way to spell "drop frame".

Which reminds me that I used to know a very heavy rider who had a
custom diamond-mixte -- it had both a top tube and a pair of mixte
stays, and the rack was part of the frame. He delighted in showing
that the rack would support his considerable weight.

("Know" in the sense of acquaintence of an acquaintence.)

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

  #5  
Old October 12th 19, 05:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 569
Default Beginner question

On 10/11/2019 7:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 6:46:57 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:
It's been half a century since I needed the information, so I'm not
sure. Is a nineteen-inch bicycle frame nineteen inches from the
center of the bottom bracket to the center of the seat cluster?
"Center" defined as the middle of the top tube.

I measured my Fuji at 20.5 inches, and the guy I stole it from said
"twenty-one inches" sounded familiar.

To the top of the top tube seems more logical, since it's the
stand-over height one is interested in -- a fat-tube aluminum bike
would measure undersized if measured to the middle.

When I was thirty and forty and sixty I didn't mind that he's an inch
taller than me, but now that I'm seventy-nine, I've fallen over while
mounting twice, and think it's time to put the word out that I'm in
the market for an elderly bike that is compatible with my elderly
components.

But I have to say what size I want.


As I recall, some manufacturers quoted a measurement that was center of BB to
center of top tube (at its intersection with the center of the seat tube.)
Other manufacturers quoted center of BB to top of top tube at its intersection
with the center of the seat tube.

More briefly, it was never really standardized. Some companies did it one way,
some did it the other.

Even with fat aluminum tubes, the difference isn't much. I think I'd assume
the size was measured center to center when shopping. If the bike you chose
turned out to be measured center to top, it would come out maybe 3/4" or 19mm
smaller. You could raise the seatpost a bit extra to compensate.

But so many bikes are now sold with sizing like Small, Medium or Large that I'm
a bit surprised it matters!

- Frank Krygowski


What Frank said, though my impression has been that center-to-top is/was
more common. Sometimes you would see abbreviations CTT or CTC in
descriptions, the latter being "Center-to-center" [of top tube].

If you're asking for a particular size, you could add "Measured to the
top of the top tube at the seat cluster" or some such.

Mark J.
  #6  
Old October 12th 19, 06:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,162
Default Beginner question

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 23:31:09 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 06:22:13 +0700, John B.
wrote:


Most of the formula use height and in-seam measurements use . Try
https://www.bicycle-guider.com/bike-...ke-size-chart/ and
compare it with your current bike, but beware that this fits you to
the bicycle, i.e., essentially the distance from the seat to the pedal
at the bottom of its stroke and if your problem is getting from the
ground to the top of the thing you will need to change these
measurements. But beware that the closer the seat is to the ground the
shorter the distance from the seat to the pedal will be and you may
find yourself pedaling with bent knees which can be uncomfortable as
well as inefficient.


Seat height is easly adjusted; it concerns me more that a shorter seat
tube implies a shorter top tube, and I'm perfectly happy once I get
aboard.


Seat height is easily adjusted... to be higher. Try making it lower
than the top tube :-)

It is almost inevitable that if those building bicycles will assume
that people with short legs will have a short upper body also :-)

A mixte of the same height would be perfect, but nowadays people think
that "mixte" is another way to spell "drop frame".


And in upstate New England, when I was a youth, they were referred to
as girls, or lady's bikes :-)


Which reminds me that I used to know a very heavy rider who had a
custom diamond-mixte -- it had both a top tube and a pair of mixte
stays, and the rack was part of the frame. He delighted in showing
that the rack would support his considerable weight.


And I crossed a bridge the other day rated for 100 tons. It is purely
a matter of selecting the proper materials :-)


("Know" in the sense of acquaintence of an acquaintence.)

--
cheers,

John B.

  #7  
Old October 12th 19, 06:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,613
Default Beginner question

On Saturday, 12 October 2019 01:06:41 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 23:31:09 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 06:22:13 +0700, John B.
wrote:


Most of the formula use height and in-seam measurements use . Try
https://www.bicycle-guider.com/bike-...ke-size-chart/ and
compare it with your current bike, but beware that this fits you to
the bicycle, i.e., essentially the distance from the seat to the pedal
at the bottom of its stroke and if your problem is getting from the
ground to the top of the thing you will need to change these
measurements. But beware that the closer the seat is to the ground the
shorter the distance from the seat to the pedal will be and you may
find yourself pedaling with bent knees which can be uncomfortable as
well as inefficient.


Seat height is easly adjusted; it concerns me more that a shorter seat
tube implies a shorter top tube, and I'm perfectly happy once I get
aboard.


Seat height is easily adjusted... to be higher. Try making it lower
than the top tube :-)

It is almost inevitable that if those building bicycles will assume
that people with short legs will have a short upper body also :-)

A mixte of the same height would be perfect, but nowadays people think
that "mixte" is another way to spell "drop frame".


And in upstate New England, when I was a youth, they were referred to
as girls, or lady's bikes :-)


Which reminds me that I used to know a very heavy rider who had a
custom diamond-mixte -- it had both a top tube and a pair of mixte
stays, and the rack was part of the frame. He delighted in showing
that the rack would support his considerable weight.


And I crossed a bridge the other day rated for 100 tons. It is purely
a matter of selecting the proper materials :-)


("Know" in the sense of acquaintence of an acquaintence.)

--
cheers,

John B.


We always referred to bicycles with a double sloping top tube that ws attached to both the seat tube and the dropouts as a MIXTE frame. If the bicycle had only one strongly sloping top tube that ended at the seat tube and did not go to the dropouts, we referred to that as a LADY'S frame. Technically speaking Mixte and Lady's frames are NOT the same thing.

Mixte frames were originally designed for shorter riders both women or men. It was developed in France between the two World Wars and was a unisex design.

Cheers
  #8  
Old October 12th 19, 07:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,162
Default Beginner question

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 22:56:59 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, 12 October 2019 01:06:41 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 23:31:09 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 06:22:13 +0700, John B.
wrote:


Most of the formula use height and in-seam measurements use . Try
https://www.bicycle-guider.com/bike-...ke-size-chart/ and
compare it with your current bike, but beware that this fits you to
the bicycle, i.e., essentially the distance from the seat to the pedal
at the bottom of its stroke and if your problem is getting from the
ground to the top of the thing you will need to change these
measurements. But beware that the closer the seat is to the ground the
shorter the distance from the seat to the pedal will be and you may
find yourself pedaling with bent knees which can be uncomfortable as
well as inefficient.

Seat height is easly adjusted; it concerns me more that a shorter seat
tube implies a shorter top tube, and I'm perfectly happy once I get
aboard.


Seat height is easily adjusted... to be higher. Try making it lower
than the top tube :-)

It is almost inevitable that if those building bicycles will assume
that people with short legs will have a short upper body also :-)

A mixte of the same height would be perfect, but nowadays people think
that "mixte" is another way to spell "drop frame".


And in upstate New England, when I was a youth, they were referred to
as girls, or lady's bikes :-)


Which reminds me that I used to know a very heavy rider who had a
custom diamond-mixte -- it had both a top tube and a pair of mixte
stays, and the rack was part of the frame. He delighted in showing
that the rack would support his considerable weight.


And I crossed a bridge the other day rated for 100 tons. It is purely
a matter of selecting the proper materials :-)


("Know" in the sense of acquaintence of an acquaintence.)

--
cheers,

John B.


We always referred to bicycles with a double sloping top tube that ws attached to both the seat tube and the dropouts as a MIXTE frame. If the bicycle had only one strongly sloping top tube that ended at the seat tube and did not go to the dropouts, we referred to that as a LADY'S frame. Technically speaking Mixte and Lady's frames are NOT the same thing.

Mixte frames were originally designed for shorter riders both women or men. It was developed in France between the two World Wars and was a unisex design.

Cheers


Then I would assume that it would be politically correct to use a
Mixte bicycle in Portland :-?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #9  
Old October 12th 19, 10:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,411
Default Beginner question

On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 6:57:02 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


We always referred to bicycles with a double sloping top tube that ws attached to both the seat tube and the dropouts as a MIXTE frame. If the bicycle had only one strongly sloping top tube that ended at the seat tube and did not go to the dropouts, we referred to that as a LADY'S frame. Technically speaking Mixte and Lady's frames are NOT the same thing.

Mixte frames were originally designed for shorter riders both women or men. It was developed in France between the two World Wars and was a unisex design.

Cheers


Technically, there are five kinds of frames for skirted people, often called "lady frames".

1. Low entry. A bicycle with a straight bottom tube meeting the seat post at the bottom bracket. It sometimes has an addition "bottom" tube running from the bottom bracket to a higher place on the head tube.

2. Paralellogram or Trapezoid. In this version of low entry the second bottom tube meets the seat tube low down but some small distance from the bottom bracket. Generally a trapezoid even if it is called a parallellogram because, the head tube and seat tube in good bike design being normally parallel, even a small chance in the two long arms from equal length parallel arms to Trapezoidal will add substantial stiffness.

3. Ouma and Oupa. Grandpa or Grandma. A style, always with a single very thick bottom tube curving to meet the bottom bracket so as to give the easiest stepover possible. Sometimes called "Wave``. Absolute the lowest entry bicycle sold today. The thick bottom tube is to restore stiffness lost by removing the top tube.

4. Mixte. Set tube and bottom tube meet at bottom bracket. Stiffness is restored, sometimes enhanced over the diamond frame, by two same height lateral tubes running from top of the head tube to the rear axle hanger, additionally attached to the seat tube by some kind of a bracket. Not the lowest stopover but stiff enough for rough duty. Suitable for ladies in skirts, and for priests in the days when they wore long divided coats.

5. Crossframe. This can be any of a whole bunch of designs popular between the wars which have been revived for heavy duty bicycles for deliveries and touring in rough places. At its simplest there is an extra top tube. A famous version first designed at Locomotief, an upmarket Dutch brand, as a tandem in 1935, in single-seater form looks like a mixte with the lateral rails attached halfway up the head tube to make space for an extra tube running from low down on the seat tube, passing through the mixte rails (and of course attached to them) to the head of the head tube. This frame sold by Locomotief before the war as the Unisex Crossframe Deluxe, and after the war by Gazelle as the Priesterrijwiel (priest's bicycle) until 1963, was revived in a form suitable for balloon tyres in the 1980's and made by Van Raam of The Netherlands on specially drawn Columbus tubes with specially made lugs, and sold by Utopia-velo of Germany as the Kranich, a loaded world tourer with a 170kg load rating; it is also sold made with less expensive tubes by makers of family bikes in The Netherlands. In the lightweight Columbus tube form, the frame is stiffer than a huge Rolls-Royce motor car; I don't see why the thicker chrome-moly versions should be less stiff, because it is the triangulation (19 or 21 closed triangles, depending on how count). My Kranich is at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html and you can find other cross frame designs at Utopia-velo.de

6. The well-known Pedersen design from 1896, umpteen modern reconstructions on the net, is technically a cross frame design but with the now proven novelty that it substitutes a stabilising rod for some tubes, and has a hammock seat strung from its seat post to the head tube in the place of a saddle.. However, there is a specially designed but very rare ladies' version which has a shorter, self-contained hammock on top of the seat post, suitable for ladies in full length skirts, with a decent low entry; it would appear at a quick glance to be likely not much less stiff than the men's version. There's a photograph of the ladies' version in my essay on my Utopia Kranich at the link above.

Andre Jute
Conservationist: the best from the past meets the rational needs of the future
  #10  
Old October 12th 19, 11:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,411
Default Beginner question

On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 11:46:57 PM UTC+1, Joy Beeson wrote:
It's been half a century since I needed the information, so I'm not
sure. Is a nineteen-inch bicycle frame nineteen inches from the
center of the bottom bracket to the center of the seat cluster?
"Center" defined as the middle of the top tube.

I measured my Fuji at 20.5 inches, and the guy I stole it from said
"twenty-one inches" sounded familiar.

To the top of the top tube seems more logical, since it's the
stand-over height one is interested in -- a fat-tube aluminum bike
would measure undersized if measured to the middle.

When I was thirty and forty and sixty I didn't mind that he's an inch
taller than me, but now that I'm seventy-nine, I've fallen over while
mounting twice, and think it's time to put the word out that I'm in
the market for an elderly bike that is compatible with my elderly
components.

But I have to say what size I want.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


Joy, depending on how hilly your countryside is, if you're forced to buy a complete new bicycle because your components won't fit whatever you can get, you may also want to look at the RANS
http://www.ransbikes.com/bicycles/
on which Tom Sherman, who used to post here, was very keen. They're crank-forward (CF) designs, so not much chop in hilly country, but when I made up a few of my own designs in wood to test for suitability, the lot called geribikes for the obvious reason that I was getting on a bit and wanted a bike that I could step over easily, I found the crank forward by far the most suitable design not only for me (on the flat) but for every older person I tried it on. Unfortunately, my town is called the Rome of West Cork for the obvious reason and my countryside is up and down, no rideable flats, so I need to sit over the bottom bracket.

One of the fab features of the CF designs like the RANS is that from the saddle you can put both feet flat on the ground. That desirable stability feature was commented on by everyone else but I hadn't noticed because my reflexes are still good and I dismount from my tall bike by simply stopping and letting it fall over and putting out a foot at the right time. Rans has low stepover designs as well.

I'm not shilling for Rans -- I've never even seen on of their bikes in the flesh -- but Tom struck me as a fellow with a tight hand on his wallet who wouldn't recommend a rubbish bike, and it is such a rare design that it might easily be overlooked even in circumstances that would make it especially suitable.

Andre Jute
Willing to try anything once
 




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