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Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 28th 15, 12:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 6,374
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 7:35:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 4:58 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
What can you do with a zero-humour, literal clown like Franki-boy Krygowski?


What can you do with a character like Jute who posts completely
nonsensical advice, then tries to excuse it by claiming his own riding
violates his own advice?


--
- Frank Krygowski


I now activate the flasher system when spotting an possibly errant cyclist.

Traffic behind responds as who wants to ruin their day with a bicycle accident.

Recommend you try this and observe.
Ads
  #12  
Old May 28th 15, 01:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
john B.
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Posts: 2,603
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists


"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/


I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."

Your suggestion to ride in a conspicuous road position relies on the
driver being aware of his surroundings, which apparently isn't always
true given the large number of auto accidents where the driver says "I
didn't see him/it".
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #13  
Old May 28th 15, 04:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 11:46:41 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

Motorists notice me because I represent expensive damage to the
panelwork of their cars, and everything about my bike and my
riding style announces it clearly.


Like this?
http://inhabitat.com/insane-russian-attack-bike-is-powered-by-a-chainsaw/
That should keep cars at a distance.

Or, perhaps a scorched earth policy if you're hit?
http://www.koreandrama.today/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/boys-over-flowers-episode-4-attack-on-jan-di-burning-bicycle.jpg

Or, maybe it's the clothes that make the safe cyclist?
http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/382011c0e973c010730f6a706700e095.jpg

I like the invisible bicycle idea:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=invisible+bicycle
Only those who are worthy can see the emperors new bicycle.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Audi, as it happens, at one stage also made the biggest selling military vehicle in its class, the Iltis.

Andre Jute
  #14  
Old May 28th 15, 04:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists


"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/


I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."


FWIW, this has been discussed on various (and more serious) bike
education forums that I'm part of.

"Ride like your invisible" is most often interpreted as "Stay completely
out of the way no matter what. Ride in the gutter, or better yet on the
sidewalk. Ride facing traffic so you can bail out in the grass if a car
comes at you." And so on. It pretty clearly says "Act as if you have
no right to the road." It sends precisely the wrong message.

Your suggestion to ride in a conspicuous road position relies on the
driver being aware of his surroundings, which apparently isn't always
true given the large number of auto accidents where the driver says "I
didn't see him/it".


Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.

Review the article and video in the link above. Or check out this one:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...sesame-street/

If that woman had taken Jute's advice literally, she probably would have
been riding to the right of the right-turn-only lane at the video's
beginning. She certainly would have been skimming the curb on other
sections of the road; and motorists would have been skimming her left elbow.

If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #15  
Old May 28th 15, 01:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 27/05/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists


"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/


I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."


Basically to ride defensively. I agree.

Your suggestion to ride in a conspicuous road position relies on the
driver being aware of his surroundings, which apparently isn't always
true given the large number of auto accidents where the driver says "I
didn't see him/it".
--


There's the rub.

  #16  
Old May 28th 15, 01:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
john B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,603
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Wed, 27 May 2015 19:35:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 4:58 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
What can you do with a zero-humour, literal clown like Franki-boy Krygowski?


What can you do with a character like Jute who posts completely
nonsensical advice, then tries to excuse it by claiming his own riding
violates his own advice?



Kill file him.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #17  
Old May 28th 15, 01:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
john B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,603
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Wed, 27 May 2015 23:56:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/


I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."


FWIW, this has been discussed on various (and more serious) bike
education forums that I'm part of.

"Ride like your invisible" is most often interpreted as "Stay completely
out of the way no matter what. Ride in the gutter, or better yet on the
sidewalk. Ride facing traffic so you can bail out in the grass if a car
comes at you." And so on. It pretty clearly says "Act as if you have
no right to the road." It sends precisely the wrong message.

Your suggestion to ride in a conspicuous road position relies on the
driver being aware of his surroundings, which apparently isn't always
true given the large number of auto accidents where the driver says "I
didn't see him/it".


Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.

Review the article and video in the link above. Or check out this one:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...sesame-street/

If that woman had taken Jute's advice literally, she probably would have
been riding to the right of the right-turn-only lane at the video's
beginning. She certainly would have been skimming the curb on other
sections of the road; and motorists would have been skimming her left elbow.

If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.


I suggest that it is largely a matter of semantics. "Ride like you are
invisible" can be interpreted equally well as "ride like they don't
see you", which is a pretty sensible attitude, as if they don't see
you then "taking the lane" could also be translated as "Suicide".

I've always felt and suggested that when something is larger than you,
faster than you, more powerful than you and harder than you that it
behooves you to avoid this thing.

Not hope that the thing will avoid you.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #18  
Old May 28th 15, 01:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 5/28/2015 7:32 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 23:56:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/

I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."


FWIW, this has been discussed on various (and more serious) bike
education forums that I'm part of.

"Ride like your invisible" is most often interpreted as "Stay completely
out of the way no matter what. Ride in the gutter, or better yet on the
sidewalk. Ride facing traffic so you can bail out in the grass if a car
comes at you." And so on. It pretty clearly says "Act as if you have
no right to the road." It sends precisely the wrong message.

Your suggestion to ride in a conspicuous road position relies on the
driver being aware of his surroundings, which apparently isn't always
true given the large number of auto accidents where the driver says "I
didn't see him/it".


Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.

Review the article and video in the link above. Or check out this one:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...sesame-street/

If that woman had taken Jute's advice literally, she probably would have
been riding to the right of the right-turn-only lane at the video's
beginning. She certainly would have been skimming the curb on other
sections of the road; and motorists would have been skimming her left elbow.

If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.


I suggest that it is largely a matter of semantics. "Ride like you are
invisible" can be interpreted equally well as "ride like they don't
see you", which is a pretty sensible attitude, as if they don't see
you then "taking the lane" could also be translated as "Suicide".

I've always felt and suggested that when something is larger than you,
faster than you, more powerful than you and harder than you that it
behooves you to avoid this thing.

Not hope that the thing will avoid you.
--
Cheers,

John B.


Perhaps it's time to go full Lamp
http://www.procyclingstats.com/team/Lampre_Merida_2015

It's a growing sentiment:
http://host.madison.com/news/local/g...05794c3ac.html

If it's good visibility for firearms it ought to work for
texting mommyvan pilots.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #19  
Old May 28th 15, 03:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clear view.

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:56:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

snip

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.


Although passing clearance often has nothing to do with road position. I have been passed closely while riding lane center -- taking the entire lane. Numerous times. Taking the lane makes sense in places, but it is no guaranty of safe passes. People who want to pass will pass, and if you're traveling slowly down the middle of a lane, you will get passed -- sometimes closely and aggressively. The frequency of unsafe passes will depend on the local driver population and the model number of the truck, e.g. 150, 250 350 etc.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #20  
Old May 28th 15, 03:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 28/05/2015 10:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:56:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

snip

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.


Although passing clearance often has nothing to do with road position. I have been passed closely while riding lane center -- taking the entire lane. Numerous times. Taking the lane makes sense in places, but it is no guaranty of safe passes. People who want to pass will pass, and if you're traveling slowly down the middle of a lane, you will get passed -- sometimes closely and aggressively. The frequency of unsafe passes will depend on the local driver population and the model number of the truck, e.g. 150, 250 350 etc.



We were on two lane highways on Sunday. There's no shoulder and we were
about 3 feet from the fog line. So about 1 foot to the right of lane
center. Drivers had to go into the oncoming lane to pass us, as per the
law and many did. A few noticeable ones didn't. Usually accelerating
and sitting on their horn as they went only far enough left to not
actually hit us.

This is a long windy road through the corn fields and with the corn
still low you can see for quite a distance. Moving left 1 foot wouldn't
have mattered. The idiots that don't like waiting for a safe pass are
going to react the same.


FWIW, I would prefer the guy screaming by with his horn blaring. At
least I know he sees me. This road is similar to the one where the
girls doing the triathalon training were mowed down a couple years ago
by the guy that fell asleep with his cruise control on.

But what I wanted to address Jay, was that it isn't just trucks.
Rednecks seem to have access to SUVs, UPS vans, tractor trailers,
motorcycles and all sorts of vehicles. And they wear disguises now.
Some are even dressed as soccer moms or college students.

The other thing is that you're right about the local driver population.
We know how the drivers are in this area and expect this behavior.

 




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