OT rant aargh!

Kathleen scrawled in bright red lipstick:
..

Very true. Until I had a son, I had no freakin' idea how different
boys truly are. I had no brothers, no male cousins close by, and I
was pumped full of the same feminist crap Penny got, and I just knew
that gender differences were the result of upbringing and
environment. My daughter was always a tomboy, which I approved of,
having been much the same myself. So I thought I had a handle on the
whole thing.

And then along came Julian. My father and my husband assure me that
the stuff he comes up with are just normal guy things, and not a
result of that time when he was two months old and rolled off the
couch and landed on his head. And so while we still insist on an
across-the-board set of standards for both kids relating to basic
human decency and courtesy, on a lot of Julian-specific issues, I
defer to his father's judgement, just as he defers to mine in regards
to our daughter.

I'd be interested to see how Monique's POV evolves once her parenting
experience progresses beyond the theoretical.

Kathleen

Nice Kathleen. My views started changing mid-80's when we were living in
Wyoming. Mr. Adventure was working the oil fields, on call 7 days a week,
pulling 36 hour shifts with no sleep, coming home, eating & sleeping for 8
hours, taking a shower and going back out for another 32 hour shift with no
sleep. Meanwhile, I was a college student, working out and riding my bike a
lot. I would get letters from my feminist friends who wondered why I wasn't
making him do half the housework. I moved even further away from the
equality agenda when I kids fairly young for my age group, and the whole
"agenda" seems to rank primary care giver for small children at the bottom
of the list of important things for women to do.

The ability that small boys have to turn Lego's, sticks and even food items
into thing that go bang is amazing. Some one I know is completely freaked
that she spawned a couple of rough and tumble types that want to wrestle all
the time. This doesn't mean that one allows violence or inappropriate
behavior... you come up with creative ways to channel it.
http://www.cet.com/~pennys/images/pumpkin.jpg

Penny

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:13:11 -0700, Penny S penned:

You are generalizing about the raising of girls now based on your personal
experience. I know plenty of families whose girls hunt and fish, shoot
guns, and are generally allowed to experience what ever they want, within
reason, without embarrassment. There are many families that give their kids
equal opportunity without shame for many things, and it has nothing to do
with "equality", just parenting style.

Fair enough. There are also many families that don't.

One of the neat things we get to do as adults is that when we become
parents, we can make a choice to do things differently.

Screw them up differently =P

Just curious, why would someone be punished for knives, guns or fires?
Were they taking them to school or something?

Well, let me restate what I think I was trying to say -- in my
experience, and apparently not just in mine (I read a really interesting
book on how girls are socialized differently from boys recently, but I
can't recall the title), boys are often allowed to engage in antisocial
behavior, while girls who do the same are dealt with much more harshly.

The parents of the boys I hung out with were very much of the attitude
that destruction of property was just part of the "boys will be boys"
thing ... whereas my parents, well, no. Then again, rethinking matters,
I don't think my parents would have approved of destruction of property
for any reason ... so maybe my friends' parents were just incompetent,
or oblivious ...

I wasn't talking about using knives to whittle wood -- more like,
practicing throwing knives in a finished room of the house.

The book I read wasn't about destruction, actually, but did talk about
how boys are often rewarded for boisterous behavior while girls are
reprimanded. Even in classrooms where the teacher is trying not to do
so. Even parents who have a child of each gender on soccer teams --
the daughter being chastised for being so loud, while the boy crows on
and on about his goal, etc.

My parents always told me that I could be president when I grew up --
that anything I wanted was in my power. But when they said "anything,"
they didn't mean dressing in baggy clothes, choosing not to shave (ooh,
my mom hated that one! marched me out of a dress fitting one time for
embarrassing her in front of the seamstress by daring to have hairy
pits!), using padded swords made of foam and pvc piping to spar with the
guys ...

Okay, that's a little too much personal revelation for one morning ...

--
monique

My pointless ramblings:
http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:28:10 -0700, Penny S penned:

Nice Kathleen. My views started changing mid-80's when we were living in
Wyoming. Mr. Adventure was working the oil fields, on call 7 days a week,
pulling 36 hour shifts with no sleep, coming home, eating & sleeping for 8
hours, taking a shower and going back out for another 32 hour shift with no
sleep. Meanwhile, I was a college student, working out and riding my bike a
lot. I would get letters from my feminist friends who wondered why I wasn't
making him do half the housework. I moved even further away from the
equality agenda when I kids fairly young for my age group, and the whole
"agenda" seems to rank primary care giver for small children at the bottom
of the list of important things for women to do.

Sounds like your "feminist friends" didn't have an equality agenda at
all. How would his doing half the chores in that scenario be equal?

Once you have kids, I absolutely agree that being a great parent has to
take priority over personal dreams, at least in those places where they
conflict. But let me pose a question -- isn't part of being a great
parent making sure that your kids understand that they have choices, and
to understand that it's cool if Suzie's mom goes to work while her dad
stays home, or maybe they both work part-time so they can both be
involved at home? Or maybe Bobby's mom is training to be a mountain
biking champion, and Bobby's dad is picking up the slack at home so she
can do that?

I don't know; I think you read way more into "equality" than I do.
Equality isn't about everybody doing everything -- it's about the couple
deciding who is best suited to doing what, and about compromise.

I will readily admit that your last sentence in that paragraph looms
large in my mind. One reason I do not want kids is because I absolutely
do not want to become trapped in the "primary caregiver" role just
because I happen to be female. The problem, of course, is that whatever
promises occur, once the kid's on the scene, if one partner doesn't pick
up the slack, the other will have to. No choice ...

--
monique

My pointless ramblings:
http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6

Monique Y. Herman scrawled in bright red lipstick:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:13:11 -0700, Penny S
, guns or
fires? Were they taking them to school or something?

Well, let me restate what I think I was trying to say -- in my
experience, and apparently not just in mine (I read a really
interesting book on how girls are socialized differently from boys
recently, but I can't recall the title), boys are often allowed to
engage in antisocial behavior, while girls who do the same are dealt
with much more harshly.



now, from what I see, boys are expeted to be more like "girls" (play nice,
be quiet) and a are punished for having energy, loudenss and general
boisterous ness.
Spend some time in a modern classroom.


The parents of the boys I hung out with were very much of the attitude
that destruction of property was just part of the "boys will be boys"
thing ... whereas my parents, well, no. Then again, rethinking
matters, I don't think my parents would have approved of destruction
of property for any reason ... so maybe my friends' parents were just
incompetent, or oblivious ...

sounds incompetent to me.
The book I read wasn't about destruction, actually, but did talk about
how boys are often rewarded for boisterous behavior while girls are
reprimanded. Even in classrooms where the teacher is trying not to do
so. Even parents who have a child of each gender on soccer teams --
the daughter being chastised for being so loud, while the boy crows on
and on about his goal, etc.


What book was this? I think you need real life raising a few or volunteering
with some youth programs.
I was a soccer mom for 7 years, that is certainly not what I saw on the
field.



My parents always told me that I could be president when I grew up --
that anything I wanted was in my power. But when they said
"anything," they didn't mean dressing in baggy clothes, choosing not
to shave (ooh, my mom hated that one! marched me out of a dress
fitting one time for embarrassing her in front of the seamstress by
daring to have hairy pits!), using padded swords made of foam and pvc
piping to spar with the guys ...

They were lying to you about anything, then were'nt they.

Okay, that's a little too much personal revelation for one morning ...

you can change it all when you are a mom.

Penny

methinks you should have a few kids and then repost with some real life
opinions.

Monique Y. Herman scrawled in bright red lipstick:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:28:10 -0700, Penny S
penned:

Nice Kathleen. My views started changing mid-80's when we were
living in Wyoming. Mr. Adventure was working the oil fields, on call
7 days a week, pulling 36 hour shifts with no sleep, coming home,
eating & sleeping for 8 hours, taking a shower and going back out
for another 32 hour shift with no sleep. Meanwhile, I was a college
student, working out and riding my bike a lot. I would get letters
from my feminist friends who wondered why I wasn't making him do
half the housework. I moved even further away from the equality
agenda when I kids fairly young for my age group, and the whole
"agenda" seems to rank primary care giver for small children at the
bottom of the list of important things for women to do.

Sounds like your "feminist friends" didn't have an equality agenda at
all. How would his doing half the chores in that scenario be equal?


that was back in the days of 50-50 everything meant "equality". I know a
few folks that still subscribe to the 50/50... regardless of who has what
responsibilities. We \subscribe to the "best person for the job" and "
everyone works until the work is done" and "who has time for it" division
of labor.

Once you have kids, I absolutely agree that being a great parent has
to take priority over personal dreams, at least in those places where
they conflict. But let me pose a question -- isn't part of being a
great parent making sure that your kids understand that they have
choices, and to understand that it's cool if Suzie's mom goes to work
while her dad stays home, or maybe they both work part-time so they
can both be involved at home? Or maybe Bobby's mom is training to be
a mountain biking champion, and Bobby's dad is picking up the slack
at home so she can do that?

absolutely.. there's not a right or wrong, there's what works for a certain
family unit. It doesn't mean I have to agree with your choices tho.

I don't know; I think you read way more into "equality" than I do.
Equality isn't about everybody doing everything -- it's about the
couple deciding who is best suited to doing what, and about
compromise.


I'm a good bit older than you... we had it drilled into our heads in the
late 60's and 70's that equality was equal in everything, not the best
person for the job. Any one remember those mmid 70's womens
"power suits" for the business woman?


I will readily admit that your last sentence in that paragraph looms
large in my mind. One reason I do not want kids is because I
absolutely do not want to become trapped in the "primary caregiver"
role just because I happen to be female. The problem, of course, is
that whatever promises occur, once the kid's on the scene, if one
partner doesn't pick up the slack, the other will have to. No choice

Trapped is a point of view.

Also, as for having to pick up the slack, well that's a choice too...
unfortunately there are plenty of parents that don't pick up the slack -
they dump the kids, abandon them, plug them into the TV, tune them out,
ignore them, do drugs, beat them into docility, expect the schools to raise
them and a whole boat load of other horrible things.
It comes down to a choice, whether you choose to decide that you are the
best person for that job, maybe your partner is, maybe a day care minimum
wage worker is. I view it as a both and honor and an obligation to be the
one primarily responsible for raising my kids to be good citizens of the
world. IMO, you should only have kids if you want them, want to have a
family, and want to be part of raising them, be part of the joy that a
family filled with love can be. After all they are not pets to be sent to
the pound when you get overly annoyed.

Penny

Corvus Corvax wrote:
"Penny S" wrote

getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up.


Penny, you are sentenced to watch "Fight Club" five times in a row. Dismissed.

CC

If she did, she'd realize its not so much about "Being a Man" as it is
about our consumer oriented society driving one man crazy.

Shawn

deluxe wrote:

"Corvus Corvax" wrote in message
m...

"Penny S" wrote

getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up.

Penny, you are sentenced to watch "Fight Club" five times in a row.

Dismissed.

You just broke the first rule.

oops, so did I.

Shawn Curry scrawled in bright red lipstick:
Corvus Corvax wrote:
"Penny S" wrote

getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up.


Penny, you are sentenced to watch "Fight Club" five times in a row.
Dismissed.

CC

If she did, she'd realize its not so much about "Being a Man" as it is
about our consumer oriented society driving one man crazy.

Shawn

Haven't seen it yet. Does Brad Pitt get naked?

Penny

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:49:13 -0000, Monique Y. Herman wrote:

using padded swords made of foam and pvc piping to spar with the guys ...

Cool, you'd have instantly been one of my best friends if you'd have shown
up with those.

Okay, that's a little too much personal revelation for one morning ...

One of the nice things about being an adult is you can be who you want to
be (and by that time you might actually just know who you are).

--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

On 19 Sep 2003 20:39:22 -0700, Alex Bird wrote:
"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message ...
On 19 Sep 2003 10:12:27 -0700, Alex Bird penned:
"Greg P." wrote in message link.net...
snipp
not girls do it in Indiana or Butt **** Egypt, but I do know that they do it
here, in my little section.

What/where/??? is 'Butt **** Egypt' ?

Assuming you're not trolling, it's just a term meaning "way the hell out
and away from civilization" ... abbreviated BFE in somewhat-polite
company.

Ah, not a phrase I've heard in the uk. To be honest, and I'm not
remotely Egyptian, or even prone to political correctness, I don't
think I'd ever use it. If I say any more then I probably will be
trolling, but I'm not impressed.

I've always heard it as "bumfupt", and I always thought it was some place
in the middle of some desert nowhere that had a funny name. I just did a
few minutes of searching, and didn't find anything to support that.
Apparently its just Americans thinking that someone else's language sounds
so funny that a town would be named an english obscenity. We tend to be a
little out of touch, you know. ;-)

--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)